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 Post subject: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:55 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:23 pm
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I have a 43 year old home and I'm having HD install new vinyl siding (they did a pretty good job on my windows). My task is to remove the old cedar siding but one thing my sales person told me has me concerned. He said I can remove everything down to the wood including the old Tyvek because the 3/8" insulation board and the Crane Market Square siding will be all the weatherization I need. Question 1, should I leave the old Tyvek on (now full of nail holes), pull it off and replace it or trust that the insulation board and crane siding will be good?

On another note, HD replaced all my windows last month and one issue they found was that the flashing over the windows had been nailed down so they could not get aluminum wrap under flashing, instead they went over the flashing and then applied calk. This is not good and I figured now is a great time to remedy this. I asked my sales guy if maybe we should put new flashing over windows when we do siding and he said the J channel along with a bead of calk between it and the window wrap would be fine. I've read lots of conflicting info on the best practice. Any advice?

My gut is telling me new Tyvek, new flashing and I'll bet you all say the same :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:16 am 
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He is referring to fan-fold insulation being your WRB (weather resistant barrier).

I am not a fan. Most fan-folds are perforated to allow for breathability and this can allow moisture in, although unlikely, as well.

Unless you are going with a true rigid foam exterior that will be taped and staggered seams (i.e. 2 layers of foam board), I always prefer some sort of WRB (Tyvek, etc).

You never re-use old Tyvek or WRB. It is cheap and even cheaper insurance.

If they capped over your flashing, they have successfully reversed the functionality of that detail by now trapping the water in the home. I will need to see a picture to make a final determination but it would not surprise me.

You never rely on caulking alone for a water seal. J-channel does work but if you are already doing the siding, a small drip cap (as long as it is not visually off putting) is never a bad idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:43 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:23 pm
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Thanks and Yes, fan fold is what they are installing. I asked if they were going to tape the seams and he said no because the house needs to breath (which is also why he said strip it to the wood). This picture is a good example of why I'm so concerned. A 2nd floor window had been leaking for years and until a recent heavy rain from the north I thought the interior water damage was old damage from someone leaving a window open, I was wrong :roll: and this is where my siding project started.

In the picture you can see the drip edge under the wrap of the new window.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
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Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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I always use tyvek, you need it for 3 reasons:
1) protects the sheathing from water/ wind driven rain.
2) creates a good air barrier.
3) its breathable with a very high perm rating.
I also prefer insulated siding as thats what i use on 99% of my siding jobs.
Keep in mind the salesman from HD isnt going to understand the science behind alot of these products.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:02 pm 
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HankinMaine wrote:
Thanks and Yes, fan fold is what they are installing. I asked if they were going to tape the seams and he said no because the house needs to breath (which is also why he said strip it to the wood). This picture is a good example of why I'm so concerned. A 2nd floor window had been leaking for years and until a recent heavy rain from the north I thought the interior water damage was old damage from someone leaving a window open, I was wrong :roll: and this is where my siding project started.

In the picture you can see the drip edge under the wrap of the new window.


The fact that he said the home needs to breathe while he knows nothing about it, is the first strike.

Fan fold has a very low permeability rating which is why it is perforated. I don't much care for it from that standpoint.

I would suggest looking for another siding contractor.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:05 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:23 pm
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OK, so based on all of this I'll strip the old Tyvek, install new drip edge over windows and new Tyvek. A few more questions.

-The Tyvek should lap over the window drip edge and I should tape top and sides with Tyvek tape, right? I've seen people use stuff that looks like grace ice and water shield on top / sides of windows but maybe that's overkill?

-Is there any real value in taping horizontal seams if I overlap them (top to bottom) a few inches?

Thanks all.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Drip cap should technically be behind the Tyvek/WRB.

The stuff you are seeing is a self-sealing weatherproofing membrane/flashing tape.

It should be applied to the sill prior to setting the window, seal the flange, flashing tape over the jambs, then the head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaKXqFtHAss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpqJxbk5qwc


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Hank, just out of curiosity, why are you dealing with all of this? if you are hiring someone to do your installation, this should all be covered by them. I will say that I'd be overly cautious with HD crews as well, (especially given your experience during the window installation) as well as the comments of that representative that clearly does not know what he's talking about. My recommendation would be to find a company that knows what they are doing, or if you are feeling ambitious, do it yourself.
It just strikes me as silly that you are performing some of the most tedious and technical work, only to pay them big $$$ to come in and do the stuff that a chimp could do-- hanging siding panels.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:09 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:23 pm
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HomeSealed wrote:
Hank, just out of curiosity, why are you dealing with all of this? if you are hiring someone to do your installation, this should all be covered by them. I will say that I'd be overly cautious with HD crews as well, (especially given your experience during the window installation) as well as the comments of that representative that clearly does not know what he's talking about. My recommendation would be to find a company that knows what they are doing, or if you are feeling ambitious, do it yourself.
It just strikes me as silly that you are performing some of the most tedious and technical work, only to pay them big $$$ to come in and do the stuff that a chimp could do-- hanging siding panels.


Great question :lol:

OK, so like when I did the windows I asked a contractor I know for a quote and both times he told me he couldn't touch the price. I told him about the price on siding (30 square installed (premium color) complete with aluminum trim, fan fold insulation, soffits etc. for 24K) and he said he wasn't even going to take the time to draw it up. That's reason 1. Reason 2, the double lifetime warranty which also covers accidental damage. OK, I can take a sh*t in a box and slap a warranty on it but .. You never know what you will get until you try to file a claim :roll: Reason 3, 18 months same as cash, my contractor could not give me that.

So, I know stripping, wrapping etc. blows but I hit my budget ceiling and having them do it would cost me 4-5K more. Also, I just don't have the time to hang and wrap (plus I'm not that good and don't own a break) :( Luckily the sales guy does not manage the project. The tyvek wrap is my deal (after getting advice from Pro's). Like some people say (and the sales guy said) the fan fold is plenty to seal the house but this is my final home and my kids will own it someday.. I really need to make sure it's tight.

I do wish I could hire a pro but I can't afford it and the current state of the house means I need to act now :( Any of you guys want to barter some Lobster and beer along with a week in Maine? :lol:

More on windows shortly.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:24 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:23 pm
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OK pros, here is what I'm looking at..

The attached postnew picture shows post window install by HD. They could not get the wrap under the flashing on top due to the way it was nailed down / existing siding so the calked it. They got the aluminum wrap over the old trim as close as they could on the sides.

sidingoff shows what I found when I started pulling off cedar to deal with 20 year old leak.

If I install a new flashing over the top of old flashing and wrap (behind tyvek) should I add some blueskin or similar flashing tape product too?

My big question and worry is the sides.. what do I do there? HD would say 'calk it' :roll:

Thanks all!


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Are you locked into this deal yet? I don't know about your buddy, but my price on 30 sq of Market Square with fanfold, and soffit fascia wrap (I'd assume maybe 250'?) would be SUBSTANTIALLY less than $24k (and that would include all the tear-off, etc, and far better workmanship than what those window wraps indicate!). I also offer SAC financing and lifetime workmanship.... I realize all of that does you no good in Maine, but my point is that I'm sure you could find a similar deal. Get a few quotes from medium-sized local companies, you might be surprised.
On the flashing, you have the right idea. Metal on wood (caulk the backside), tape over the top, then tyvek, then siding.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:42 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:23 pm
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OK, I have until tomorrow to back out.. maybe I can stall them a bit. My house is a split foyer with a breezeway and a garage with an apartment (gambrel roof). There is TONS of wrap and soffit work. You feel confident I can go with a local medium size company for less? WOW! You sure you and your family don't want to vacation in Maine? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Tyvek behind vinyl siding and j channel calk
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Ha! I'd say this, you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't at least investigate other options. Back out of that contract for now, they will still be there waiting for your business if you are unable to find something better in the next week or two. I guarantee that there are knowledgable and skilled companies with great products and fair pricing in your area, you just have to find one. :D


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