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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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The Imperial LS is probably the better performer of the two from a structural and air infiltration, however, the Sunrise window is going to win the beauty contest without a doubt.


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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+1, although I would not call the LS ugly by any means. All things being equal, I'd lean in that (LS) direction. More solidly built, better numbers. The other thing to consider, is that the brown the Sunrise offers as a co-extrusion is earthtone, and is significantly lighter than bronze... Not sure if that is an important factor for you.
Incidentally, did you ever get that Okna quote? IMO, that product is best at blending the looks and additional glass area of the Sunrise, with the performance of the Softlite.
In the end, you really can't go wrong with any of these three choices. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:07 am
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Still waiting on the Okna quote, but i will definitely post it once received. One thing I am not seeing on the Sunrise windows is the AI numbers. Do you guys know those by any chance?

Does the relative newness (number of years in business) of Okna concern you guys when selecting a window and thinking of potential warranty claims in the future?


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:27 pm 
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I haven't sold the Sunrise in a few years, but I believe that the double hung comes in around .05 AI.
Okna has been in business for nearly 20 years, just about the same as Sunrise. Both are healthy, growing companies that you can feel confident in dealing with. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
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Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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I would agree with WOW and HomeSealed.
You will not go wrong with any of those three.
Which Sunrise door is in the quote?t The Okna/HiMark door is a tank.


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:57 am 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:07 am
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I don't know the model number or type of the Sunrise patio door. I have a verbal quote and the written one is being prepared. I should have it later today or tomorrow, and will update with that.

One thing that I liked about the Soft-lite window is the Kevlar reinforcement at the meeting rail. Sunrise doesn't have that. Since we get a ton of wind, and our current double and triple mulled windows creak like nobody's business, I wonder if the lack of reinforcement at the meeting rail is a real concern. Now, granted, our current windows are only 2 1/4 thick, so perhaps just having much better quality vinyl with more strength will fix that.

I haven't really had a chance to thoroughly examine the Okna, but I will this afternoon. I will update with the Okna quote once I get it. You guys continue to be so helpful. Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:07 am
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I received the written Sunrise quote. It is the Sunrise Patio door 6068. Is this a good one?

With respect to the door, a Sunrise dealer that I spoke with sells both Soft-lite and Sunrise. He much prefers the Sunrise patio door, and said he has installed 4 Kingsroyal so far, and was not impressed at all. He said either way, he would go with Sunrise on the patio door.


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
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Kings Royal is a nice door but I think the Sunrise is probably considered to be nicer.


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:30 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:27 am
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Location: Texas - Houston & Austin
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As someone who has offered both, Sunrise definitely makes the nicer door.


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:39 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:07 am
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Good to know about the door! Still waiting on Okna.


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:27 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am
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HomeSealed wrote:
toddinmn wrote:
Do you have data that shows the difference between the 2 windows on a blower door test between the 2 windows under similar conditions?
Were your past customers not happy with your Ply-Gems?
I have seen many blower door tests with new windows installed from Pella, sash kits, to lower end vinyl's and they are never the week point in the air infiltration. These homes were gutted,typically new batt insulation in walls with vapor barrier, rims spray foamed and were pretty tight.

You are absolutely right Todd, the windows typically are not the weak point- at least in terms of payback, however that does not mean that there is no difference between a window that is extremely tight compared to one that is not.
You are preaching to the choir here, believe me. One only needs to look back at my posts from a couple years ago to see how adamantly against the "pro AI " crowd I was, that is until I saw indisputable evidence that proved it to have significant merit. As far as data, that would be very difficult to get an apples to apples comparison from one home to another for a variety of reasons, but we are planning on building a "live demo" in our showroom where several different windows are installed and a blower door is hooked up. I'm hoping to get that done over winter.

-Can a home be made super tight with average windows? Certainly.
-Would it be even more efficient with a tighter window? You betcha.
-Do superior performance ratings including air infiltration provide a good indication that a given product is designed and built better than another, and therefore provide a higher level of performance over a longer period of time? Yes once again.

On Plygem, my customers have been happy with them for the most part. As I have said previously, I do believe that it is a solid window. It just would not be considered among the "tighter" products that are out there, which are what I would prefer all things being equal.

Would love to see this undisputable data that has significant merit.


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:05 am 
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toddinmn wrote:
Would love to see this undisputable data that has significant merit.


I have done test in/test out data two home of similar construction (Close square footage and same original construction windows) that got two different replacement windows.

The test in data on both homes was very similar and within 5% of each other. The test out data was quite different.

Home 1 that had the tighter windows installed showed an appreciable drop in leakage to the tune of about 600 cfm at 50 Pascals. This customer was going to have some Air Sealing work done after the windows but the drop in air changes rate put the home right at the MVR.

Home 2 did have a very slight drop in air leakage but could have been considered statistically insignificant if so inclined. IR camera imaging clearly indicated leakage in and around those windows and they were installed by the same crews and with the same techniques (i.e. foam, capping, interior caulking).

I don't have an Energy Star study to go with this, but this has been my personal observation and in what was as equal a comparison as I could create.


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:43 am 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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toddinmn wrote:
Would love to see this undisputable data that has significant merit.

My quote was evidence, not data. Nobody replaces brand new windows with other new windows that have a better AI, nor is there a blower door test done in and out on only replacement of windows (typically other air-sealing measures are taking place in the home at the same time). That makes accurate data very difficult to come by. The evidence that I have seen are thermal cam images of vinyl windows(and wood) that were less than 10 years old, in good condition, and considered to be "good quality" (and properly installed) compared with images after the windows were replaced with a much tighter unit. I have also seen thermal images of brand new windows with AI in the .15-.2 range installed compared to images of a product at .01- .02, and there were noticeable differences in air leakage. The variable here is that they were witnessed in different homes.
I realize that may not be what you are looking for Todd. It sounds like you would like to see some third party, scientific testing done that compares each window using the same test, under the same conditions, with all variables removed. After all, that would be the only fair and accurate way to test and compare products, right?
Oh wait, that is exactly how air infiltration ratings are tested in the first place. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:56 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am
Posts: 320
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I believe your evidence would fall under the definition of data. I was just curious what was considered undisputable. There is data out there but what is considered undisputable is disputable. The testing of a window in a lab and in a house are 2 different things, if that and your thermal cam views are undisputable merit, that is all I was looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: Still looking...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:50 pm
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So which is a better window? Marvin infinity, eclipse or soft-lite ? What about Atrium?


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