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 Post subject: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:22 pm
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First post, been lurking for several months...

I am replacing 8 32x61's, and 14 32x52's (oriel 8 over 12's).

I just got a quote for Gorell 5100g's to replace all 22 windows: $12,650 (575 each). Includes grids, vinyl "color" (not sure I want it), and "free" triple glaze (he called it R10). Full coil stock cap.

He probably quoted the 5100g because he knows I'm concerned about glass loss and shifting proportions of the 8 over 12 lites due to frame thickness.

He tried to close me on the first visit and I told him I don't do that. He gave me until Monday morning at 9:00.

Meanwhile, I have a quote coming from a Okna dealer, he'll quote 800's. I might let the Gorell guy go, as my gut says that his price is ok but nothing smashing. Thoughts?


Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:45 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
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Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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the Okna 800 is a better performing window both from an energy efficiency stand point as well as structural. that said, the Gorell is a good product and the pricing is not bad. you will probably be pleasantly surprised when you see the looks and performance numbers of the Okna 800.
when you say " colored window", do you mean a colored interior or exterior such as almond?
the gorell 5100 is more comparable to the okna 500 even though the 500 has better numbers as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:20 pm 
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Probably any color on the coil stock.

I can't imagine someone throwing in window color/paint.

The glass is not anywhere close to R10 and you need to ask him exactly what glass option he was quoting.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:11 am 
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I agree on all accounts. The 800 is a superior window in every regard.
As wow said, that Gorell window is not "R10", or even close to it. With double pane, you will have a u value around .29 or so, which is R3 and change. That type of "lingo" is one of my biggest pet peeves about window companies. It is very misleading at best, and borderline dishonest.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:51 am 

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Yep, I too am not a fan of that type of salesmanship.

I agree that the 800dx is a great window. If possible you should use it.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:17 am 

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Thanks for the responses, gents. I met with the company representing Okna and here's an update -

500's are about $700 each (with grids, installed, and capped with PVC clad coil). This compares to $575 for Gorell 5100g's (apples to apples, except for the 5100 is triple pane). I thought they'd be about the same cost as the Gorell's. Was that realistic?

Here's how it breaks down: 500's are $600 each in standard sizes, installed. 800's would be $675 each. But I have 14 oriels, and there's a $55 upcharge for each. No upcharge with Gorell, or it wasn't broken out separately in the quote. Add $65 each to cap with PVC clad coil stock. Reputable company, I'm sure it would be a quality job. I'm not sure they're quoting Superspacer (will find out today).

Honestly, I think about dropping back to Simonton Asure or 5500's. They might be perfectly adequate, leaving aside aesthetics for the moment (which I do value to some degree)...

Back to the Gorell quote for a moment, I wasn't a fan of his style either. He called his unspecified triple pane 5100g (I assume "Energy Master III") "R10", which I knew was bogus but he was on a roll. He looked at my wife when describing cleaning, and looked at me when talking about the economics. Talk about old school. And to confirm, yes he is offering any shade of extruded frame/sash that I want - but I'm still leaning toward white because their "off white" doesn't match my interior's off white.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:59 am 
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mclaire wrote:
Thanks for the responses, gents. I met with the company representing Okna and here's an update -

500's are about $700 each (with grids, installed, and capped with PVC clad coil). This compares to $575 for Gorell 5100g's (apples to apples, except for the 5100 is triple pane). I thought they'd be about the same cost as the Gorell's. Was that realistic?

Pricing really depends on the vendor to some extent. I would say the 500 normally compares to the 5300 and the Okna 400 is more like the 5100.

Here's how it breaks down: 500's are $600 each in standard sizes, installed. 800's would be $675 each. But I have 14 oriels, and there's a $55 upcharge for each. No upcharge with Gorell, or it wasn't broken out separately in the quote. Add $65 each to cap with PVC clad coil stock. Reputable company, I'm sure it would be a quality job. I'm not sure they're quoting Superspacer (will find out today).

Okna only has one spacer option so you will get a non-metallic spacer (HeatSeal is their brand name on it) with the window. That is a bit steep for the Oriel option in our market but again, pricing is vendor specific.

Honestly, I think about dropping back to Simonton Asure or 5500's. They might be perfectly adequate, leaving aside aesthetics for the moment (which I do value to some degree)...

Not sure that is the best move here. The Asure is an entry level window from Simonton and basically and adaptation of their 5050. They re-badged and tweaked the 5050 a bit to go to market with a thinner window. I think you are better served by the Gorell in this case if the Okna will not hit your budget marks.

Back to the Gorell quote for a moment, I wasn't a fan of his style either. He called his unspecified triple pane 5100g (I assume "Energy Master III") "R10", which I knew was bogus but he was on a roll. He looked at my wife when describing cleaning, and looked at me when talking about the economics. Talk about old school. And to confirm, yes he is offering any shade of extruded frame/sash that I want - but I'm still leaning toward white because their "off white" doesn't match my interior's off white.

I would still get him to tell you what glass option they were quoting.


See above.

If you liked the Okna the best, tell the dealer where you are at on the process and see what they are willing to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:35 am 
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Windows on Washington wrote:

If you liked the Okna the best, tell the dealer where you are at on the process and see what they are willing to do.

Excellent advice.... I would also agree that if you can't fit the Okna in your budget, the Gorell is a better choice than the Simonton despite the goofball sales guy.

The best "apples to apples" comparison here would be the Gorell 5300 WITH super spacer. The 500 still out-performs it in every way, but it is definitely closer and give you a more accurate price comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:52 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:22 pm
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Thanks again for the comments.

I was close to deciding on the 500 due to aesthetics and its great AL number. The VT and SHGC numbers also favor OKNA compared to the Gorell triple pane.

Then the Gorell guy called me today. I told him I was leaning toward OKNA, and gave him my reasons. He claims that after the Soft-Lite acquisition they retested the 5100g and the AL numbers compete with OKNA. I told him I have seen no evidence of that. He promised to give me numbers by email tomorrow. He was pretty animated about this, he sounds confident that he has something to show me. I wonder who did the test, and if it can be directly compared to OKNA's .01.

He also said they switched to Soft-Lite's extrusions and that aesthetically they're compare better to the OKNA windows. I told him if the numbers look good, I'd be willing to look at his new 5100g sample.

If all this checks out, then based on prior forum posts I will ask for reinforced, foam filled sash upgrades, and we might have a deal. Not because I think the Gorell is better, but because it will be plenty good enough for less money, with a lifetime transferable warranty I should have confidence in now that they're part of Soft-Lite.

How am I doing?


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:05 am 
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I think you are 100% on the right track.

I will not question his assertions without data to indicate otherwise, but you cannot just make a few minor changes to make an airtight window out of one that was not previously.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:52 am 
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The new 5100 is technically not " improved", it is a relabeled solftlite Bainbridge. The previous 5100 no longer exits... It is a decent product, but it still is not direct competition (ie: apples to apples) for the Okna 500 which has better numbers, nicer fit and finish. In Softlite's entire lineup, the truly accurate comparison would be the Imperial LS, which is a step above the top Gorell offering (5300). That said, your logic is not bad on product choice. If you can load up that Gorell product and still get it substantially cheaper, then you certainly have to take that into consideration.
The other thing to think about is that while I minimized this sales guy's tactics earlier, now he is just blowing smoke. Whether or not you would feel comfortable doing business with him given that fact is entirely up to you... Have you given the Okna guy the opportunity to move on price?


Last edited by HomeSealed on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:44 am 

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The only information that I would accept, proving the AL rating, is the official test report from whichever certifying organization the manufacture uses. In the case of Soft-lite that is AAMA. No informal emails, no formal letters, only the report. I don't mean to impugn the salesman, but in this industry, trust but verify is the best rule of thumb.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:22 pm
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Randy, I'll insist on an AAMA report, thanks for that info.

WOW, in January '10 you posted that the 5155's AL is 0.17. Is the 5155 the foam and reinforced version of the 5100? .17 might not be terrible, but it isn't great from what I read here.


So here’s where I’m at, and I’m near a decision:

$12,500 for 5100g’s with Energy Master III triple pane (will negotiate for foam and reinforcement)
$13,500 for 500’s (foam filled and full screens)
$15,000 for 800’s (foam filled and full screens)

All prices include grids, install with coil stock. 14 of the 22 windows are oriel. Both dealers are BBB “Accredited Business” with A+ ratings. Both dealers have W2 employees and have tons of references.

Is the OKNA performance difference worth $1000?


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:57 pm 
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For my money, on 22 windows, the $1,000 difference is worth it.

Those air leakage numbers are from the old 5100. The new unit should be sub 0.10 (I think around 0.07).

Most folks prefer the aesthetics of the Okna 500 over the Gorell 5100.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:40 pm 
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+1 on all counts... That old info on the 5100 is obsolete. I believe the new 5100/Bainbridge is around the .07 quoted by WoW.
I would also agree that the price difference is worth it. It is a difference of $45 per window for an elite choice, vs what is more of an entry level offering from softlite. Will the cost difference be paid for in energy savings? Probably not anytime soon, however keep in mind that not only do the ratings measure performance, but they are a very good indicator of quality as well.


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