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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:44 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:27 am
Posts: 809
Location: Texas - Houston & Austin
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I agree that Okna is the better window of those two. I question the wisdom of Soft-lite trying to do a makeover on the Gorell lines, and believe that Soft-lite has done lasting damage to their reputation in the way they handled the whole Gorell purchase and subsequent warranty claims.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:12 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:20 pm
Posts: 48
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randy wrote:
I agree that Okna is the better window of those two. I question the wisdom of Soft-lite trying to do a makeover on the Gorell lines, and believe that Soft-lite has done lasting damage to their reputation in the way they handled the whole Gorell purchase and subsequent warranty claims.

I strongly agree. I also wonder how strong the warranty is on the new Gorell lines, given the fact that there are some red flags about the long term case for the line:
-There are unsatisfied Gorell customers with no warranty now coming out of the woodwork and damaging the reputation of both brands
-Most of the Gorell line save the 5300 and 5400 series are just re-badged Soft-lites including the 5100 series and casements
-What is the incentive for a dealer to sell an inferior performer (Gorell line) for the same price that they could get an Imperial LS, if not even more?

These issues make me wonder how successful the Gorell line will be. The question is, if it is discontinued at some point, will Soft-lite continue to warranty those products? I'm not saying that they won't or trying to create a panic, but I do think that there are reasons for caution.
Can anybody tell me: Is Soft-lite now called Softlite-Gorell, LLC, or is Soft-lite-Gorell LLC a separate entity from the original company? If the latter, that would be alarming as well.

On the original question, I like that Okna option.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:19 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:22 pm
Posts: 13
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Right on with .07. I just got his email:

"Air infiltration: .07 cfm at 25 mph
Water: R40 48mph
U Value on total window: .19

These are AAMA Gold Label Certified Performance Ratings from the NFRC".

That info is pretty thin, but when he told me the glass package he's quoting is Thermal Master III (Krypton filled) I was able to find more numbers for 5100g at NFRC:


U .19
SHGC .24
VT .39
CR 70

So the 500 has worse U factor, but will be brighter and pick up more solar gain (I'm in NE). Outside of a lab, would these differences would be noticeable? Regardless, I think I'd pay an extra grand for OKNA's, mostly for intangible reasons not directly related to performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:43 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:22 pm
Posts: 13
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fridge2020 wrote:
randy wrote:
I agree that Okna is the better window of those two. I question the wisdom of Soft-lite trying to do a makeover on the Gorell lines, and believe that Soft-lite has done lasting damage to their reputation in the way they handled the whole Gorell purchase and subsequent warranty claims.

I strongly agree. I also wonder how strong the warranty is on the new Gorell lines, given the fact that there are some red flags about the long term case for the line:
-There are unsatisfied Gorell customers with no warranty now coming out of the woodwork and damaging the reputation of both brands
-Most of the Gorell line save the 5300 and 5400 series are just re-badged Soft-lites including the 5100 series and casements
-What is the incentive for a dealer to sell an inferior performer (Gorell line) for the same price that they could get an Imperial LS, if not even more?

These issues make me wonder how successful the Gorell line will be. The question is, if it is discontinued at some point, will Soft-lite continue to warranty those products? I'm not saying that they won't or trying to create a panic, but I do think that there are reasons for caution.
Can anybody tell me: Is Soft-lite now called Softlite-Gorell, LLC, or is Soft-lite-Gorell LLC a separate entity from the original company? If the latter, that would be alarming as well.

On the original question, I like that Okna option.


Interesting comments about warranty, as I was just writing up my thoughts/concerns about that. I came down on the other side. But you make some good points, and yes, gorell.com says they're Soft-Lite Gorell LLC. soft-lite.com says they're Soft-Lite LLC, (parent of Soft-Lite Gorell LLC). So it appears that they're different entities. Like you said, I'm not sure what we can draw from that, but it does make me think.

Below is what I wrote before reading your post got me thinking about the flip side it. I need to let this sink in for a day or so, and make a decision.

"On paper, I think OKNA and Gorell's warranty is the same. But to justify my purchase, I need to be able to RELY on selling this house at any time in the future with a full lifetime, transferable window warranty. I'm no financier or lawyer, but I don't think I need to worry about Soft-Lite going into receivership and ruining the warranty.

I read older posts on this board and it seems that Gorell "before" was like OKNA now - everybody loved both the company and the technology. I didn't note any reluctance to buy or sell Gorell until almost the end. Nobody could have predicted that the value of their warranty for all but a few customers would be drastically reduced. So ironically, what already happened to Gorell might now make the 5100g a safer bet for me.

I have no reason to think it will happen with OKNA, in fact it probably won't. But it's a risk I'm not sure I need to take - I don't see a big upside. Comments on this are most welcome, and sorry in advance if I'm hitting a nerve. I actually WANT to buy the OKNA."


I'm not sure how any of us can factor this stuff. There is a case to be made for buying the best window and hoping for the best.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Posts: 1804
Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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I realize that this is a major purchase, but be careful not to over-think things, which can sometimes lead you in the wrong direction. Softlite and Okna are both solid companies. The difference with the old Gorell, is that that they did not offer cutting edge products (at least not very recently), but built their great reputation with excellent service and good quality. There were a lot of other issues as well, including their labor situation, etc.
Okna and Softlite are both at the leading edge of performance and product innovation, both are expanding, and both run very smart, lean operations by all accounts.
Essentially your choice comes down to a B level window with a higher-end glass package, at a cheaper price, vs a better window with its standard glass and more "standard options"... A car analogy would be a completely optioned out Toyota, vs a BMW for a little bit more. When all is said and done, either choice should serve you well.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:23 am 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
Posts: 1357
Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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I would choose either the SL Imp LS or the Okna 800DX.
The Soft-lite - Gorell LLC I believe is a reasonable legal liabillty structure.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:00 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:27 am
Posts: 809
Location: Texas - Houston & Austin
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Just to clarify; I have no concerns about the financial stability of Soft-lite, whatsoever. They also make some great products, among the best in the industry. My only concern with Soft-lite is the way in which they have treated the thousands of homeowners who had purchased Gorell products prior to the acquisition, as well as the wisdom of the purchase itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing 22 double hungs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:18 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:20 pm
Posts: 48
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Can't disagree with that, my only concern is for the viability of the Gorell brand, especially if Softlite-Gorell is a separate company. Makes me think of GM's purchase of Saab, Daimler-Benz purchase of Chrysler, etc. Obviosly not the same exact industry or situation, but they are good examples of a strong company (at least GM was at that time) who purchased a failing company for its "brand", only to have overestimated the power of that brand and underestimated the problems that came with it, ultimately resulting in failure... I'm getting off topic a bit though.
Back again to the question at hand, I would take a better-built product with a good glass package over an okay product with a very good glass package any day of the week, but that is just me. Referencing homeseal's post, I'll take the 3 series, you can keep the Camry with navigation and leather for a few bucks less.


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