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 Post subject: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:21 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:25 pm
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We had full replacement Sunrise Restorations windows installed several years ago and we're having the same company back to finish the job downstairs. I'm trying to address any post-install questions that have come to mind before they start on the downstairs windows. Thus, my recent series of questions. So thanks in advance to the usual crew that responds.

The installer removed the old wood windows down to the studs of the original openings. All new jamb, casing and trim were installed on the inside. However, none of the external trim (not the siding, but the wood planks that frame the outside of the window) was touched on any of the windows. The new windows are flush with external trim and caulked. Despite all my pre-purchase research, I never thought about asking installers about external trim and flashing.

So, did my installer possibly cut corners by not removing the external window trim to properly flash the new windows? And if so, is it likely that the outside caulking is the only thing preventing leaks?

Or is it possible to have a good full replacement (non-insert) install without removing the outside trim?


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:22 am 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
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Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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It is possible to have a good and proper install without removing the exterior casing.
Since I can not see the before , during and after process you will need to talk to your contractor and address your concerns.
A mechanical drip that is retrofitted, if the original on was removed, and closed cell low expansion foam would be two items/methods to provide long lasting water tightness.

theWindowNerd...


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:55 am 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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+1. The method is acceptable, although I generally prefer a little bit more comprehensive install with trim removal, nailing fins, etc, but again, what is described above is commonplace and problem-free when done properly.
If there any issue that I have, it would be that these things should have been described by your installation company in the first place. It is possible that they did, but it just was not really elaborated on much so it went unnoticed. I know that the buying process typically involves an overwhelming rush of information so some details can get past.


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:04 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:25 pm
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I've attached pictures of the outside of two of the new windows showing the original trim. The third picture shows one of our original windows we still have in the house which is the same as what the new windows replaced. This is the first time I noticed what looks like white flashing folded over on the top side of the replacement window vinyl. As for the outside trim, we have some touching up to do.


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Original Window Full.jpg [76.12 KiB]
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Outside Window Side.jpg [64.38 KiB]
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Outside Window 1.jpg [56.26 KiB]
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HomeSealed: I had 7 different companies quote me and only one mentioned in their quote removal of external trim "to ensure proper window flashing so that the external caulking is only for aesthetic purposes". None of the others talked about flashing or other installation details other than whether it would be an insert or full replacement method. In fact most didn't even bring up the install method unless I asked. Instead, they all focused almost exclusively on the window design. At the time, I'm sure I just thought that flashing and sealing were all pretty much going to be done the same way and that there wouldn't be much difference between installations in that area. I will certainly be asking the installer to explain how he intends to install our remaining windows.


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
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Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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The unit under the soffit has no drip cap.
The unit with no soffit directly above has a drip cap.
All is fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:03 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:25 pm
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Thanks, Anthony. Lots of little things I would never notice.


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:53 am 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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+1.
Looks like they used the method that Anthony described earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:03 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:25 pm
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HomeSealed wrote:
+1.
Looks like they used the method that Anthony described earlier.



Great. It's nice to have some reassurance that the install seems to have been done well. The installer was one of the reasons why we went with the company we did.


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:16 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:25 pm
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So the remaining windows are almost complete. From the outside, the frame is flush with the original external trim with about 1/4 inch gap. From the inside (before the jamb and casing was installed), there's a slightly wider gap (maybe a 1/2 of an inch between the frame and the wall studs. Also from the inside I can see extending past the wall stud what looks like the back of the external trim or perhaps what's left of the original nailing fin. I think it may be the nailing fin because it looks like gray, hard plastic and looks like it has been cut and not perfectly straight. Again, the nailing fin (if it is that) extends past the stud about 1/4 inch. The installer then put the nozzle of the low expansion gun into the gap from the inside. So the foam was sprayed right up to the back of the external window trim and then caulked from outside.

But now, I'm curious, if my contractor could have ordered the Sunrise Restorations window with a nailing fin to do a more thorough install and flashing. Do the Restorations have nailing fins because that window seems to be popular on this forum?


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
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Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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Sunrise offers two different styles of nailing fins/flanges for their windows. One is a basic mechanical snap in collapsable very thin flange that can be snapped in at the factory or field installed. It's removal or attachment to the window takes all of about 2 minutes per window max. The 90-degree corners are open and require the factory foam corner filler pieces. Proper AAMA window/sill flashing application is a must with this type of installation.

Sunrise's other new construction fin/flange option is a welded integral full seal flange with a built in j-channel. If one isn't installing new standard sized (thickness) vinyl siding along with the window this option becomes less sensible as the built in j-channel becomes useless and is more of a strange cosmetic blemish more than anything. One of the problems even with higher end vinyl replacement windows tends to be the design of some of the integral nailing flanges with built in j-channel combos. Many siding crews don't like them as the depth of the built in j-channel and face is more shallow than that of regular vinyl j-channel. As much as I love the Sunrise offerings I tend to lean towards manufacturers like Soft-Lite which offers three types of nailing fin options. My favorite is a fully welded integral fin without a built in j-channel for retrofit (keeping existing siding) full frame tear outs.

Providing what has already been done to the house if you were to have a full frame tear out with a factory nailing flange the appearance both to the interior and exterior would have be quite different from the previously installed windows. The offset of placement of the nailing flange to side jambs of the windows forces the window to project further off of the face of the wall. Nothing wrong with this at all and it's nice to have a deeper jamb pocket on the inside for mounting larger blinds. The downside was pointed out previously in an older post by window4u in that the further the window starts to project off of the house the more it's exposed outside of the wall cavity which means very slightly less performance as the unit can be warmer or colder.

Installing flush like your guys did is most common given your siding.


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:56 am 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Given the fact that you had trim already, I would have liked to see it removed and a new windows installed with fin. The "express" install where the old fin is just cut and the new window installed without fin is acceptable as I mentioned above, but I definitely would have preferred a more comprehensive method that offers added layers of protection. You mentioned earlier that only one contractor spoke of removing the trim, but he was the guy offering a superior option... So to answer your question, yes, it could have been done, but you really shouldn't have problems with the method used.


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:12 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:25 pm
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Delaware Mike: I definitely like the deeper jamb (see my photo from a previous posting on sash bowing). Before the windows were flush with the inside wall, but now I'll be able to put blinds or shades inside the jamb which I prefer. As to the rest of your details, that's a little above my head to picture.

Given that we went down to the studs and ripped out the drywall on the insides, I would have preferred to get into the outside trim. Already there and making a mess, so why not do a more thorough job on my 30 year old house? Just curious how much more it would have cost for installing with the nailing fin. Oh well, it sounds like I should be fine. Thanks for the input.


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:39 am 
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Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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Our express method 99% of the time would include exterior capping or some type of PVC trim board. Homesealed makes a good point regarding if all that work were to be done with the interior trim why not go the little extra to the exterior. When I bid a job like this I try to present several options with a heavy emphasis on pushing the very best finished outcome.

The fin on the window could have run about an additional $8 to $25 max. The labor time and cost on messing with the exterior trim boards could have run anywhere from $40 to $200 depending upon what needs to be done? New trim boards and capping, composite trim boards, painting, messing with damaged siding, sheathing that can't been seen until trim boards are off? Who knows?


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Delaware Mike wrote:
When I bid a job like this I try to present several options with a heavy emphasis on pushing the very best finished outcome.


Agreed :)
For me, the bulk of the added expense is in getting down to the RO and messing with interior trim, but the exterior could indeed get pricey as well if boards are getting replaced.


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 Post subject: Re: Window flashing without disturbing external trim
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:25 pm
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It would have been nice for the contractors to explain their installation options to me rather than come in with heat lamps and double-hung sample windows. In fact, instead of their sample units, I wish they would come in with samples showing a cross sections of an installed window unit showing how windows are connected and sealed.

Perhaps in the end I would have chosen to keep the existing trim in place anyways due to potential costs, but I would have preferred making an informed choice. Thanks, all.


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