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 Post subject: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:59 am
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Contractors, please share your wisdom. I appreciate your feedback in my July post, :D but in addition to the brick moulding problems, we also have some inside trim and sills that are pretty rotten and have decided that we do need full frame replacement. I found a Soft-Lite dealer in Iowa, but he said they only do the insert type of window. So back to the drawing board I went.

I have finally found a company that sells both Marvin windows and Sunrise Windows. Now to decide between the fiberglass Infinity or the Sunrise Vinyl windows.

1) The Sunrise and Marvin Infinity and the Sunrise seem pretty comparable as far as ratings go. Will Fiberglass outperform vinyl?

2)Is fiberglass supposed to last longer, or just contract/expand less with a varied climate?

3)Living in the house indefinitely. Will fiberglass or vinyl be a long-term investment, or do we need full wood for longevity?

Thanks again for all your help!


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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1. Well engineer vinyl and well engineer fiberglass will both perform about the same.

2. Again, if considering similar quality products, there is no real data to indicated that fiberglass will outlast vinyl. The expansion and contraction argument is overblown. Does fiberglass expand and contract less, yes. Is the expansion and contraction an issue for the glass or longevity of the window, not if well designed (Sunrise is) or well installed.

3. Neither. I think, in this case, the Marvin name might buy you a bit more recognition and resale, but I can't see a reason to truthfully recommend one over the other based on the stated concerns.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:43 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:27 am
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Location: Texas - Houston & Austin
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Which Sunrise window are you considering? The base Sunrise doesn't come with reinforcement at all, which is a negative for me. If it's the Vanguard, Verde, or Restorations it's a well built window.

As to the Integrity, are you looking at the all fiberglass model or the wood interior version? The all Ultrex model is not impressive at all, with a snap in sill damn, flimsy tilt latches, etc... The Ultrex/Wood window is a nice window. The Sunrise windows are better on air infiltration and have a better warranty. I would argue that the double lifetime warranty offered by Sunrise would have a bigger impact on resale value than the Marvin brand name.

As WoW said, fiberglass isn't automatically a better investment than vinyl, but it does allow more flexibility in changing the colors down the road by repainting.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:18 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 399
Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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I agree with Randy. The Marvin Integrity all ultrex is ugly and cheap looking.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:54 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:59 am
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Hmm, I am not really sure which grade of Sunrise this bid is for. The literature given to me mentions no different grades of windows. I better look into that.

I think the Marvin window is an Infinity, not an Intregity and might possibly be all fiberglass.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:16 pm 
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What's the name on the Sunrise brochure.

The Infinity is all ultrex (fiberglass) and certainly prettier than the Integrity all ultrex.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:43 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:27 am
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Location: Texas - Houston & Austin
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Sorry I thought you were looking at the Integrity. As WoW said, the Infinity is a nice looking window.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:59 am
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Windows on Washington-The cover of the sunrise Window brochure is tan at the top and greenish/gold at the bottom. The top right corner has the title Sunrise Windows, the difference is clear! The bottom of the cover says Your home...uniquely you.


P.s. Talked to a different person from the one company that sells Soft Lite. He said that yes, they can do full replacement, it will just cost more. They use the Imperial LS grade.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:50 pm 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
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Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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The LS is a great window. It would be my #2 choice behind Himark 800 and just ahed or even with Sunrise premium units.
In my region typical additional cost to go from insert install to full frame/full tear is $225 per window.

theWindowNerd...


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
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Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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That would be the "regular" Sunrise series which is still a very good window. However, on wider DH units most of us prefer some sort of non-metal sash reinforcement which this series does not feature, even as an option/upgrade. We do quite a bit of Imperial LS units from Soft-Lite and it's a fantastic window that's built like a tank. I agree with Antony's assessment as I love the 800dx. For a welded integral flanged window like one may utilize in a full frame tear out, the LS had been my most successful and installer friendly window.

Sounds like you're on the right track and have some nice options.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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I agree with all of the above, I would just reinforce randy's point that there actually IS a pretty fair difference in the performance, particularly air infiltration. My order would be Imperial Ls, standard Sunrise, and then Infinity-- if cost is no factor-- although I suspect that the Infinity comes at a premium which would push it further down my list. Fiberglass has its merits, however it offers little to no benefit for most folks over premium vinyl in a residential application.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:54 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:02 am
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Gentlemen

Unfortunately I will have to disagree with some of what was said. To say well engineered PVC will last as long as fiberglass is a stretch...a long stretch. Please keep in mind that there are many different grades of fiberglass as well. As many of you know many vinyl windows have wall thickness as thin as .62 thousandth. Let us disregards all of them as they are not well engineered.

Secondly we must look at it from a material point of view. Fiberglass is a thermoset and PVC is a thermoplastic, big difference.

On Marvin's website it specifically states that fiberglass windows last 38% longer useful life expectancy than vinyl. If this were not true, as you all know some lawyer would be all over this. Also as stated on their website,there is a study to confirm this. I have yet to come across a study to back up the claim that vinyl lasts as long. Perhaps it would be prudent to state that this is an opinion, your experience or is unconfirmed. Until then, I cannot see how anyone can possibly state anything else. I am aware of some ASTM tests but this is not what we are talking about and should never be used for comparison purposes, it is generic. We are talking specifics.

Therefore if you don't consider longevity as a benefit then I probably have to agree with most of what you said. Sorry if I upset anyone.

Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:14 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Welcome to the forum Andy, thanks for your contribution. First, let me say that I, along with the other pros who have commented so far sell a variety of products and materials (vinyl and fiberglass included), so I like to think that brings some impartiality. Despite the name of the forum, we are not strictly vinyl advocates.
In my experience and professional opinion, each material has its pros and cons, and ultimately a product should be judged in the form of a finished assembly, as opposed to the inherent properties of the materials that it is made of. The design and engineering of the product will mitigate its shortcomings and exploit its strengths. Let me offer a response to a few of your points:

- The better vinyl window options have an outer wall thickness of .80 in many cases. As you stated, there are varying grades of both vinyl and fiberglass products, so let's assume that we would be comparing apples to apples in that regard.

-Regarding the 38% claim on Marvin's site, or ANY claim made by ANY manufacturer for that matter, we all know that these things must be taken with a grain of salt. To say that if it were not completely accurate "lawyers would be all over it" is a bit naive, particularly given the industry that we are talking about here. Up until recently manufacturers were making crazy claims of 50% energy savings for crying out loud, and most still make claims in one form or another based on shaky evidence. If we are to believe every manufacturer's claims, then EVERY window would be the best, most efficient and long lasting product available. What are the specs of the vinyl window that this study uses? Does it pertain specifically to material degradation, or address performance of the overall assembly? What are the conditions of the testing, and over what period of time? Who funded this study and why?... One study published by a manufacturer of the product in question is hardly a compelling argument.

-I believe that anyone either buying or selling windows would indeed consider longevity a benefit, unfortunately there is no definitive evidence to state that one way or another in this case, although vinyl certainly has a longer track record to go on. On the plus side, a well-made window of either material should easily last longer than the period of time that it will take for its technology to become irrelevant or obsolete. I don't think that anyone will argue that we are unlikely to see exponential improvements in the technology and energy efficiency of windows in the next 30 years, and a well made product of either material should easily outlast that.

Lastly, let me just reiterate that their is no anti-fiberglass bias here. In fact, the Marvin product is frequently recommended when it fits a homeowners unique list of priorities and goals for their project, and there are some Canadian fg products that offer phenomenal performance as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2
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Homesealed

Thank for the well thought out response. While I do not agree to everything that you posted, I would like to put it to the side for now.

But as you stated "-I believe that anyone either buying or selling windows would indeed consider longevity a benefit, unfortunately there is no definitive evidence to state that one way or another in this case". Then how can anyone here even state that they last just as long as one another? Then the answer should be I don't know, correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Marvin or Sunrise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:14 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 399
Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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Just to add, there are vinyl windows with very thick outer walls but the actual grade of the vinyl was poor and therefore warped anyway. I have seen thinner guage vinyl that was a very high grade that clearly outperformed most windows with thicker walls. Its the quality of the extrusion as well as the design of the extrusion.

Although in theory fiberglass is strong, some of the very high end vinyl extrusions are as well. My problem with fiberglass windows, particularly the marvin infinity and its very high air infiltration number which i think is .27 ; thats crazy high. I will verify it. Ether way, i know its high. I do know both soft lite and okna have air infiltration rates of .01 on their double hungs.


Last edited by masterext on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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