Abcleads.com BBB Business Review  NAHB member
Call us at
1-800-219-5332


All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Help me cut through the BS - please!
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:48 pm 

Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 2:41 pm
Posts: 1
Offline
Ok, So I've just said goodbye to my 4th 'estimator' in 3 days, and so far it's been as much fun as childbirth.

It's not so much the variety in price - that I can somewhat understand - it is the complete opposite answers to the same questions that is giving me pause.

For example:

Q. Will Argon gas help with heat gain (my biggest problem)
A. 2 say yes, it is essential to have it. 2 say no it's a waste of time/money

Q. Will upgrading to a 'tint' help my problem or will LowE2 be enough.
A. 2 say it will help dramatically (for a price), 2 say low E2 will suffice and any further 'tint' would be a waste of $. 2 say it will block all natural light, 1 says it won't be noticable (I forgot to ask the 4th)

And the list goes on and on....

Also, so far, no two sets of measurements are the same. I can understand them being a half inch out here and there, but some are 3 to 5 inches different on the same window!

Each of course, makes the best window, pays their installers "just that little bit more" and slams the other guys. Also, I was warned today that any windows that have to travel over mountains to get here may be subject to seal failure from the pressure of altitude - ok.....

I am at the stage where I believe nothing from any of them!

Of the 4 'quotes', I've narrowed it down to 3 (disgarded Milgard).
I have...

Anlin at $5500 No Gas - Low E2 - No tint Large local Co. Seems to have good rep.

LBL at $4200 Argon - Low E2 - No tint. Small owner/operator. BBB checks out. Contractor and Glazier licence. Bonded etc.

Brother's at $5300 - No Gas - Low E2 - Tint. Larger Co. Seem reputable.

This is for 9 windows in a small apartment building in the SF Bay Area. I need something that will hold up to tenants, look attractive and help with the 'oven like' interiors we now experience in the summer.

Is there anyone here that can cut through the BS and help me choose - please. Total UI seems to be 950-1000. All are sliding windows.


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 6:06 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Offline
I know it must be the most frustrating thing in the world to deal with. I think it would be so fun to have all the salesman show up at the same time and knuckle up. My money is on FenX (just ribbing, he's in NY).

Living in your climate I'm quite sure the LOE2/Arg will work great. They will provide the heat gain protection your looking for. By adding a tint your getting even more protection by reflecting some of the harmful rays of the sun. Krypton gas might offer more protection if you can get it. It's about three times more dense than Argon with a higher price. As for shipping over the mountains. More than likely you have a company who has a plant on your side of the range. If not they are shipped with small capillary tubes that vent the glass to keep it safe. Don't worry the gas doesn't leak out.

I can't help you on your window choices because my knowledge of your suppliers is nothing. Hopefully someone else here can assist you there.


Top
 
 
 Post subject: cutting thru the BS
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 2:11 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:22 pm
Posts: 3
Offline
My experience with the salespeople sounds similar. We went with Home Depot. They install Simonton windows. The sales pitch was the least obnoxious and we ended up with some great windows. Very satisfied with Home Depot.


Top
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Help me cut through the BS - please!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:06 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:58 am
Posts: 20
Location: S.F NORTH BAY AREA
Offline
janandmax wrote:
Ok, So I've just said goodbye to my 4th 'estimator' in 3 days, and so far it's been as much fun as childbirth.

It's not so much the variety in price - that I can somewhat understand - it is the complete opposite answers to the same questions that is giving me pause.

For example:

Q. Will Argon gas help with heat gain (my biggest problem)
A. 2 say yes, it is essential to have it. 2 say no it's a waste of time/money

ARGON GAS WONT HURT YOU, IT WILL HELP A LIL BIT MORE THAN NOT HAVING IT.THE REASON WHY THEY SAY ITS A WASTE OF MONEY IS BECAUSE WITH A METAL SPACER OR EVEN WITH WITH A WARM EDGE SPACER THE GAS WILL LEAK EVENTUALLY MAYBE IN 5 TO 10 YEARS.

Q. Will upgrading to a 'tint' help my problem or will LowE2 be enough.
A. 2 say it will help dramatically (for a price), 2 say low E2 will suffice and any further 'tint' would be a waste of $. 2 say it will block all natural light, 1 says it won't be noticable (I forgot to ask the 4th)

LO E2 SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT. BUT SOMETIMES YOU FACE A SUNRISE SIDE OR SUNSET AND THE INTERIOR JUST GETS TO HOT SO YOU MAY WANT TO FURTHER TINT YOUR GLASS. SAN FRANCISCO HARDLY GETS TOO HOT IF IT WAS ME I WOULD NOT HAVE ADDED TINT.
And the list goes on and on....

Also, so far, no two sets of measurements are the same. I can understand them being a half inch out here and there, but some are 3 to 5 inches different on the same window!

AN ESTIMATOR MEASUREMENTS ARE TAKEN ROUGHLY AND ARE NOT THE FINAL MEASUREMENTS. THEY HELP HIM PRICE THE WINDOWS FROM THE PRICEBOOK.
Each of course, makes the best window, pays their installers "just that little bit more" and slams the other guys. Also, I was warned today that any windows that have to travel over mountains to get here may be subject to seal failure from the pressure of altitude - ok.....

I am at the stage where I believe nothing from any of them!

Of the 4 'quotes', I've narrowed it down to 3 (disgarded Milgard).
I have...

Anlin at $5500 No Gas - Low E2 - No tint Large local Co. Seems to have good rep.

LBL at $4200 Argon - Low E2 - No tint. Small owner/operator. BBB checks out. Contractor and Glazier licence. Bonded etc.

Brother's at $5300 - No Gas - Low E2 - Tint. Larger Co. Seem reputable.



This is for 9 windows in a small apartment building in the SF Bay Area. I need something that will hold up to tenants, look attractive and help with the 'oven like' interiors we now experience in the summer.

Is there anyone here that can cut through the BS and help me choose - please. Total UI seems to be 950-1000. All are sliding windows.



Good luck


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:00 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:12 pm
Posts: 7
Offline
I completely understand your frustration. I am a sales person in the business and I think I have a very successful sales record because I speak only with facts and do not "trash" my competitor. I was very hesitant to join the industry because of the number of cheeseball "used car salesmen" types who have tried to sell me windows.

Here are my two best suggestions:

Look at the "U" value of the windows - this is the energy efficiency, the lower the better.

Look at their warranties - many have the most rediculous restrictions I have ever seen (like voiding the warranty if you live anywhere near the ocean. nice!). Almost any manufacturer lists their warranty on their website.

Look on www.nfrc.org - the independent rating organization that lists stats for almost all windows.

Our window has a "U" value of .24 WITHOUT Argon - any well built window should not need argon in the SF Bay Area with our mild climate. Check the stats - this is an amazing U value.

Our warranty is the ONLY warranty I have ever read that guarantees the window not to discolor or fail in any way, for a DOUBLE, transferrable lifetime warranty. It's also the shortest warranty I have ever seen (meaning there's no BS)

If you want more info from me, I work for The Clear Choice and my email is nunesalvarez@speakeasy.net. We can get you any window you want, but we have an exclusive window vinyl design manufactured by VPI.


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:32 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:58 pm
Posts: 1328
Location: Northern & Central Illinois, Chicago suburbs
Offline
Melissa wrote:
Our window has a "U" value of .24 WITHOUT Argon - any well built window should not need argon in the SF Bay Area with our mild climate. Check the stats - this is an amazing U value.


I tried to check the stats with no luck. I looked at hundreds and hundreds of window VPI configurations tested. The best I could find is a .29 on a picture window.

Can you help me out and help me narrow down the search?


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:32 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:12 pm
Posts: 7
Offline
I was on the website printing stats on all the most popular windows and you're right, it does not look like they are listing the exclusive design VPI makes for my company - frustrating. We have documentation from the NFRC rating our window at .24 on our marketing materials (Every window should somewhere on their full brochure).

I noticed it said there were over 500 results for VPI, but the list was truncated for the search, so perhaps our window was in the sectio not shown. It is a called the California Custom Series. I looked on the VPI website and they give very general information, but don't mention our window specifically. American Home Craft also used to sell this window, but VPI severed their relationship because of overpricing (that was the first place I ever saw this window before I began working for The Clear Choice)

Here's the deal. You have vinyl, wood and aluminum windows. We all know aluminum (like any metal) conducts heat. So that frame will negate some of the insulating properties of any well made glass pack (the glass pack is the two panes of glass and whatever the spacer between is). Wood is gorgeous (I prefer older homes and like the look, if I could afford it), but it is also a poor insulator and pricey to maintain. Eventually, wood breaks down since it's organic. If you have a historic home, I would recommend wood for curb appeal and vinyl everywhere else. Vinyl is only as good as it is made. VIP makes a formula for us with 3 times the chemicals that prevent discoloration and failure. As I said, check all warranties for it is not common for any manufacturer to guarantee against failures and discoloration.

Second you have glass. PPG is the original manufacturer of glass and the inventors of LowE and Sunclean. VPI is one of very, very few who use PPG glass on BOTH sides. If the LowE and Sunclean are on the wrong surfaces, they will fail. Both should be on the exterior piece of glass.

Third you have the spacer. Again, most use aluminum and we know how aluminum conducts heat and cold, which negates any insulating properties 2 panes of glass and argon give. Aluminum does not give, so eventually with years of expansion and contraction, the seal will fail. Look for a product with a rubber spacer. VPI provides us with their SuperSpacer, a rubbery product which is backed with mylar (think of how long mylar balloons hold helium as opposed to plain rubber balloons). This will always remain flexible, thus our double lifetime warrany. I think they said the life expectancy is something like 125 years. :o

Above and beyond all that, look for a window that has steel reinforced frames and cam locks for security as well as glass that is glazed from the inside, not the outside, so burglars cannot easily lift out the window to break in.

Was that too much information? Just think of how long it took me to learn that :wink:

Hope that helps...


Top
 
 
 Post subject: reply
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:38 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
Offline
Melissa

Do you have any idea how many incorrect statements you just made??? Perhaps you should research the industry and this site for a bit before typing away. These sites are not the run of the mill... there are actually professionals here that will call a bluff and catch blatent untruths. I'll kindly ask you to revise and correct your posts. Thank you.


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
Offline
Whew...glad you said it


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:54 am 

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 135
Location: ne ohio
Offline
wow, i think i'll buy her window, who do i make the check out to? that sounds great with your average homeowner but that will not fly here. you could have saved time typing and just scanned your sales brochure. your statement will unleash all the dogs here, as it should.


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:31 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:51 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Kingsport, TN
Offline
Man you guys are rough on people, I thought her posts were not to far from the truth. Were all entitled to some personal opinions on this board. I'd say Melissa sells a pretty good window, she might just be off a little on some of her facts. It surprises me to see how some threads never get a reply on this board, but if there is critisism to be made or someone is off alittle bit on their facts, watch out here comes 4-5 people to tell you just how wrong you are. Go figure.


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:52 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
Offline
Welcome to the world of message boards.
For some reason, all over the world, no matter what the subject matter, it just seems to go that way.....


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:44 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:12 pm
Posts: 7
Offline
meow. sorry to unleash the cat fight.

I'm just stating what I've been taught by the manufacturer and our degreed engineer. DEGREED engineer. The poor woman wanted some clarification and something to focus on. I did not insist she buy my window. Guess this is the wrong place for someone who likes to help...


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:52 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:12 pm
Posts: 7
Offline
by the way...specifically, what did I say wrong?


Top
 
 
 Post subject: reply
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:59 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
Offline
Profx

I respond to as many threads as I can get to and offer far more than criticism. My response to this thread was due to the name of the original post, "Help me cut through the BS - Please!". I interpret that as a poster seeking facts for a change instead of a sales pitch filled with false statements. I am NOT suggesting that it is intentional deception, but merely inaccurate information given by trainers or manufacturer marketing reps and then passed on to consumers.

I'll attempt to clarify my points, Melissa stated:

"Our window has a "U" value of .24 WITHOUT Argon" and, "We have documentation from the NFRC rating our window at .24 on our marketing materials".
**It doesn't matter what your marketing materials state, the NFRC lists all rated windows, by type and glasspack. What window are you quoting?? What type, res/non-res ??? This is why the NFRC exists. The addition of insulating gas (Argon/Krypton) ALWAYS increases the U-factor. It's simple physics... it's more dense then air and slows the heat transfer in or out. Those that condemn it are either afraid their seals won't retain it or trying to lower their price to get the job.

"VIP makes a formula for us with 3 times the chemicals that prevent discoloration and failure."
**The whitening (bleaching) agent that prevents discoloration in PVC- Poly-Vinyl-Chloride (vinyl) is Chloride. Vinyl's original color is actually black. Since Chloride is a known carcinogen, it's use and percentage is heavily controlled by the EPA and is virtually equal in every white PVC-U product. Titanium oxide is also added to many of the better vinyl extrusions to help block UV effects. 3 times what? What chemicals?

“PPG is the original manufacturer of glass and the inventors of LowE and Sunclean. VPI is one of very, very few who use PPG glass on BOTH sides. If the LowE and Sunclean are on the wrong surfaces, they will fail. Both should be on the exterior piece of glass".
**Glass has been around for 4000 years and the float process used by 90% of current manufacturers was invented by Pilkington. Low-E coatings were invented by Roy G. Gordon in 1979. All manufactures using PPG (Pittsburg Plate Glass) for I.G. units use it on both panes (or triple). The optimal surface(s) of glass for Low-E coatings are determined by climate.

"VPI provides us with their SuperSpacer, a rubbery product which is backed with mylar".
**Edgetech's SuperSpacer is structural silcone foam.

"This will always remain flexible, thus our double lifetime warrany. I think they said the life expectancy is something like 125 years".
**You are offering a warranty that is not backed by the manfacturers of your product's components, many of which are less than 10 years old. VPI themselves have only been around for about 10 years.

"I'm just stating what I've been taught by the manufacturer and our degreed engineer. DEGREED engineer."
**You may want to ask your engineer why your windows have a residential DP rating of 20 if they are built so well. That is the bottom of the scale. No catfight at all... no BS either as originally requested. Your DEGREED ENGINEER is a little off on the facts. No need to take anyone's word for it... research these items for yourself.

"The poor woman wanted some clarification and something to focus on."
** NO... the poster asked for facts, not just something to focus on.

FenEx


Last edited by FenEx on Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group