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 Post subject: Pushy sales, but is this a good deal?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 23
Offline
Gosh, WHAT an experience it is dealing with pushy and canned sales pitches... It has been years since I've sat through something as obnoxious! But anyway....

We have been quoted for Kensington's Quantum 2 windows as follows:

All Triple (with that heat shield) pane, two sliders, plain open glass R10.

2 x 81 united inches
3 x 106 united inches
3 x 120 united inches
1 x 5 foot patio door
1 x 6 foot patio door
(Plus construction necessary to convert a 60x60 window into a patio door hole - a $3000 charge???)

Total quote (all included) is $14,400.

The sales person was pushy (sign today to get this price) so we did to end the hassle and just in case it was a good price.

Of course intend to compare other similar products and cancel the order (within 3 days) if we note this is an over the top cost for what they are supplying.

The "sign today" sales pitch is really offputting I can tell you! Really obnoxious...

So we are starting now to try to research whether this might be a good deal, and if we don't have an answer by our 3 days "you can cancel during this time" we'll just cancel anyway, as we don't like being rushed into a decision.

We don't feel guilty, because of the high pressure sales tactics as I'm sure (from reading these message boards) many of you can empathize with!

Good Grief! What an experience!

As we were given SUCH a heavy handed sales approach with our first bid, we would very much appreciate your feedback on this topic.

Oh yes, we are in the Metro DC area.

Thanks to all who share their experiences and knowledge here!

PS. If there are any window folks in our area who would like to submit a bid with a similar (or better?) quality window (we won't be in this home for that long so we are looking for value in terms of resale) and can offer a more reasonable price, we'd be glad to hear from you.

PPS. Interestingly this firm was able to immediately drop their quote by $600 when I told them I needed their best price to see if it was competitive or we were planning to cancel the contract. I told them to call back with the best that they could do as I was now comparing and contrasting.... If there's that much wiggle room just because of my "first" grumble, I wonder how much more "cushion" there was in this original quote! I'm really beginning to HATE this industry! We want value, not game playing and bad mouthing the competition to make a sale!


Last edited by nmmmm on Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:41 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
Offline
OK. I'm not an expert on QUANTUM 2 Windows, but I did do some research on them.
Overall, they seem decent, maybe better than alot of other vinyl replacement windows, but I found some things that look pretty supect.

First, the glass. That "heat mirror" third pane they use, well, that alone does enough of a job for noise reduction. The mirror effect has nothing to do with that, as they imply on their website. Also, I'm not so sure that the heat moirror technology os all it's cracked up to be, although, again, I'm no expert. just having lowE glass will stop alot of heat loss, and the heat mirror is only on the third pane??
Maybe that's common, but I'm not sure.
Also, why aren't all three panes of glass the same thickness?

The frame is what I've referred to as hollow sash, in that it has no re-inforcing beams. Not uncommon, but not having them makes me think the price should also be more common to other windows.

r25 frame is ok, but the frame is less than 14% of the actual window.
What is the R value on the glass? Or the U-value. if it's not listed on the website, why? Wouldn't that be something you'd want to know?
And PPG Solarban is again only done on one side of one pane of glass, I believe. There are better technology's.

Next the warrantee.

"This Lifetime Limited Warranty does not cover damage caused by improper installation, abuse, alteration, tampering, improper maintenance, accident, negligence, acts of God, consequential damage such as the cost of repairing or replacing damaged property as a result of product failure, nor any other cause which is beyond the manufacturer's control."

I highlighted the things I don't like to see. Especially the words product failure. What does that say??

I have sold the very best windows you can buy, arguably, and maybe for 10 units (including the 2 doors), our sale price would have been near or maybe less than what you've been quoted. Maybe more. You do have some big windows, and two doors.
Quantum 2 windows do not come close to the ones I used to sell.

What was the list price??
What was the price per unit?
How much need to be re-worked to fit that new patio door?
Too many things I don't know, so you could be in the ballpark, or you could be getting shilled.
All this is just my opinion, btw.
I know the construction of the window does not overly impress me and the patio doors are possibly the same construction. Are those triple pane, too??


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 Post subject: more details...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:25 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 23
Offline
Hi there,

Thanks for the speedy response on this forum!

The list price (I presume you mean the pricing that was on their price sheet?) was as follows:

120 & 106 united inches (both considered large) were $1050 each
81 united inches (medium) $925
5 foot patio door $2600
6 foot patio door $2800

(Both patio doors Quantum2 also - with that heat thingy making it triple)

The space for the door area is already mostly window (5 foot by 5 foot) it is just the bottom (about 23 inches of wall to the outside that needs to be demolished, and I guess whatever framing needs to be installed, installed.

The windows are R10 we are told. It didn't make sense for us to get R12 for the extra price and energy savings - especially as we are going to be moving soon. But we do need to do our windows which are 20 years old and in the winter we have ice INSIDE!

I presume with the warranty they couldn't grumble about improper installation as their company will do the installation? Maybe I'm naive :)

This whole experience has been something I tell you!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
Offline
Being on the sales end, I cna tell you it's stressful for us too.
I suppose those prices are ok, albeit a little high, in my opiunion. Someone else wil probably come back with a better idea of what they think.

The weirdest thing is the 120 and 106" being the same price. 14 UI is a prety decent sized difference.

The other thing is the R-Value. R12 is pretty high. I assume that's a center of glass reading. What it is overall ius possibly lower.


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 Post subject: Yes they can grumble about improper installation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:10 pm 

Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 2:09 pm
Posts: 10
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Offline
When it comes time to check the warranty you will probably be 5 - 7 years down the line, you will then be dealing with the manufacture, they can and will check for improper installation, because its a limitation in their warranty, if it is not installed according to their specs, you will be responsible.

Stay away from these kind of warranties, they are only designed to help a window company stay in business, not to protect the consumer.


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 Post subject: hmmmm......
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:58 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 23
Offline
Well we have two more days to decide to cancel, and as a result of various forums, including this one, we are also very interested in the Schuco 4000 windows.

We do like the look of Schuco, and it appears to be a window well known and liked on various forums, as opposed to the Quantum2 window (in terms of being a known product) -- we can hardly find any information about whether it performs as promoted.

We do still like the Quantum2 overall from the brochure and the product demo we saw, we are just leery of the price (in addition to the $3,000 to make a hole?) and we've not heard great things about Longs, and we are still seething about the sales tactics, "sign today to get this price" and "let me call my manager" (and you can hear him screaming about this is the LAST day absolutely at this price over the phone, etc.) even though they knew we had barely started researching windows at that point. I'm reminded of all thos movies about grungy sales stories - was it Tin Man and Glengarry Glenross I'm thinking of? Yikes in this day and age?

We are now looking to obtain quotes for Schuco 4000 windows from any dealers/installers in our area (Metro DC) and we would welcome any information about who to pick (if there is a selection of installers?)

It appears that the pricing will be competitive, and I'm particularly curious to know how much they'll charge to turn our 5X5 window into a 5 foot patio door hole... I think most of all, the $3,000 price do do that bothers me. $7,800 for a patio door with the construction sounds very steep to me!

Anyway, if anyone knows of good Schuco dealers in the Metro DC/Virginina area, we would be VERY grateful for your feedback!
Thanks all for this great forum!


Last edited by nmmmm on Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Quality sales, looking for value, we'd LOVE Schuco quotes?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:13 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 23
Offline
HipKat">>Being on the sales end, I cna tell you it's stressful for us too. <<

I can absolutely understand that this must be a very competitive business -- and sympathize, and of course there is room for all qualities of products as people have different needs/financial situations...

Plus for the qaulity sales person it must be frustrating, as it is so hard for the consumer to compare apples with apples.

We really aren't interested in screwing every last dime of commission out of the sales person or looking for the cheapest we can find, we just want to be treated like grown ups and know that we have got a good value for the money.

I guess I'm just used to sales people being interested FIRST in what our needs are, and then able to explain why the product they have is (or is not) appropriate, instead of having to suffer through a four hour (yes FOUR!) long sales spiel about why they chose to sell this particular product, yada, yada, yada... and meantime we are listening to every "how to close a sale" cliche in the book, plus bad mouthing the competition.

I guess we should have spoken up and said, "OK, enough" our time is valuable, but as I say, the product did seem good, and if on the offchance it was a good price (we had nothing to compare it to at that point) we figured we could always cancel later, so why not go for it temporarily. We were willing to put up with the sales grief for that <grin>

>>The weirdest thing is the 120 and 106" being the same price. 14 UI is a prety decent sized difference.<<

We thought that was odd too, but the pricing list was small, medium and large?

>>The other thing is the R-Value. R12 is pretty high. I assume that's a center of glass reading. What it is overall ius possibly lower.<<

I don't know about that - we were just given the choice between an R10 or R12 pricing, and didn't think that the R12 pricing warranted the small increase in energy savings.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
Offline
I talked to my boss today about that.
He says r12 is B.S.!
20 years in the business and I have to guess he knows what he's talking about.The competetive part of sales is being in a company that is more of a consultant, with a range of products that can fit your specific needs at a fair price and working for a snake oil salesman, and yes it was Tin Man, where the phrase Tin Man tactics comes from.

I went from the snake oil salesman company to the customer friendly company.

The Schuco IS considered by many to be the best there is, or close to it, anyhow.
But a Mercedes Benz don't come cheap man.....


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 Post subject: Metro DC Schuco (or comparable window) dealers/installers?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:42 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 23
Offline
We would be very glad to hear from any dealers/installers in the Metro DC area!

Thanks![/b]


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 Post subject: Re: Pushy sales, but is this a good deal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 31
Offline
Hi I live in Alexandria. I went with shucco...triple pane i think we had 12 windows and paid 11k....and they threw in a clopay garage door.....only thing was that the huge 3 part slider in the living room was install incorrectly and it has been nearly 2months...these guys are pretty profeesional and have a nice product.....NU view out of clifton...george bowie...i sat in on 3 of those winded window presentations and i rather gouge my eyes out with a spoon then go through that crap again......this sales spheel will go out the door when the gov't enact the new window sales requirements soon...you know all that NFRC info; especially the required 4 parameters....blah blah blah you should have walked and pushed his ass out the door when he forced you sign to ensure that price..these guys, at least in this area can be like that...i say cancel, and check out 2 other companies....anderson renewal (way too expensive , 2 pane average window), schucco (less than anderson much better window and 2-3k less).....BTW it is amazing these shucco windows....we almost do not need blinds for the east facing windows cuz the triple pane krypton is unreal.....they are &^%$ quiet too! #%$ cancel those bastards, go to the NFRC site, research the exact window with the NFRC number every energy star window MUST have and compare all the windows you are looking at........IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE THIS THEN ABSOLUTELY.....GO THERE NOW.....OR CANCEL THE ORDER AND MAKE THIS GUY PRODUCE THE NFRC# FOR THE QUOATED WINDOWS...IF HE STONEWALLS CANCEL IMMEDIATELY OR UNTIL HE PROVIDES THIS INFORMATION........OTHERWISE HE IS SELLING YOU A PRODUCT YOU ARE TAKING HIS WORD ABOUT...........TRUST ME


nmmmm wrote:
Gosh, WHAT an experience it is dealing with pushy and canned sales pitches... It has been years since I've sat through something as obnoxious! But anyway....

We have been quoted for Kensington's Quantum 2 windows as follows:

All Triple (with that heat shield) pane, two sliders, plain open glass R10.

2 x 81 united inches
3 x 106 united inches
3 x 120 united inches
1 x 5 foot patio door
1 x 6 foot patio door
(Plus construction necessary to convert a 60x60 window into a patio door hole - a $3000 charge???)

Total quote (all included) is $14,400.

The sales person was pushy (sign today to get this price) so we did to end the hassle and just in case it was a good price.

Of course intend to compare other similar products and cancel the order (within 3 days) if we note this is an over the top cost for what they are supplying.

The "sign today" sales pitch is really offputting I can tell you! Really obnoxious...

So we are starting now to try to research whether this might be a good deal, and if we don't have an answer by our 3 days "you can cancel during this time" we'll just cancel anyway, as we don't like being rushed into a decision.

We don't feel guilty, because of the high pressure sales tactics as I'm sure (from reading these message boards) many of you can empathize with!

Good Grief! What an experience!

As we were given SUCH a heavy handed sales approach with our first bid, we would very much appreciate your feedback on this topic.

Oh yes, we are in the Metro DC area.

Thanks to all who share their experiences and knowledge here!

PS. If there are any window folks in our area who would like to submit a bid with a similar (or better?) quality window (we won't be in this home for that long so we are looking for value in terms of resale) and can offer a more reasonable price, we'd be glad to hear from you.

PPS. Interestingly this firm was able to immediately drop their quote by $600 when I told them I needed their best price to see if it was competitive or we were planning to cancel the contract. I told them to call back with the best that they could do as I was now comparing and contrasting.... If there's that much wiggle room just because of my "first" grumble, I wonder how much more "cushion" there was in this original quote! I'm really beginning to HATE this industry! We want value, not game playing and bad mouthing the competition to make a sale!


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 Post subject: Re: Quality sales, looking for value, we'd LOVE Schuco quote
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 31
Offline
THE MORE I READ THESE POST THE MORE THINK YOU SHOULD CANCEL IMMEDIATELY....CALL HIM NOW......CALL GEORGE BOWIE AT NU-VIEW....FOR SCHUUCO....TELL VINCENT PENOSO RECOMMENED THEM.

THE R-VALUE IS THE INVERSE OF THE , OF THE , OF THE SOMEONE HELP ME OUT HERE.....ONE OF THE PARAMETERS E? THE U? I FORGET.....R10, R12? WHAT THE HELL KINDA GAS IS IN THEM THERE WINDOWS PARTNER? MY SCHUCCO WINDOWS HAVE KRYPTON....


nmmmm wrote:
HipKat">>Being on the sales end, I cna tell you it's stressful for us too. <<

I can absolutely understand that this must be a very competitive business -- and sympathize, and of course there is room for all qualities of products as people have different needs/financial situations...

Plus for the qaulity sales person it must be frustrating, as it is so hard for the consumer to compare apples with apples.

We really aren't interested in screwing every last dime of commission out of the sales person or looking for the cheapest we can find, we just want to be treated like grown ups and know that we have got a good value for the money.

I guess I'm just used to sales people being interested FIRST in what our needs are, and then able to explain why the product they have is (or is not) appropriate, instead of having to suffer through a four hour (yes FOUR!) long sales spiel about why they chose to sell this particular product, yada, yada, yada... and meantime we are listening to every "how to close a sale" cliche in the book, plus bad mouthing the competition.

I guess we should have spoken up and said, "OK, enough" our time is valuable, but as I say, the product did seem good, and if on the offchance it was a good price (we had nothing to compare it to at that point) we figured we could always cancel later, so why not go for it temporarily. We were willing to put up with the sales grief for that <grin>

>>The weirdest thing is the 120 and 106" being the same price. 14 UI is a prety decent sized difference.<<

We thought that was odd too, but the pricing list was small, medium and large?

>>The other thing is the R-Value. R12 is pretty high. I assume that's a center of glass reading. What it is overall ius possibly lower.<<

I don't know about that - we were just given the choice between an R10 or R12 pricing, and didn't think that the R12 pricing warranted the small increase in energy savings.


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 Post subject: Re: hmmmm......
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 31
Offline
THERE IS ONLY 1 SCHUCCO DEALER IN THIS ENTIRE AREA......NU-VIEW
nmmmm wrote:
Well we have two more days to decide to cancel, and as a result of various forums, including this one, we are also very interested in the Schuco 4000 windows.

We do like the look of Schuco, and it appears to be a window well known and liked on various forums, as opposed to the Quantum2 window (in terms of being a known product) -- we can hardly find any information about whether it performs as promoted.

We do still like the Quantum2 overall from the brochure and the product demo we saw, we are just leery of the price (in addition to the $3,000 to make a hole?) and we've not heard great things about Longs, and we are still seething about the sales tactics, "sign today to get this price" and "let me call my manager" (and you can hear him screaming about this is the LAST day absolutely at this price over the phone, etc.) even though they knew we had barely started researching windows at that point. I'm reminded of all thos movies about grungy sales stories - was it Tin Man and Glengarry Glenross I'm thinking of? Yikes in this day and age?

We are now looking to obtain quotes for Schuco 4000 windows from any dealers/installers in our area (Metro DC) and we would welcome any information about who to pick (if there is a selection of installers?)

It appears that the pricing will be competitive, and I'm particularly curious to know how much they'll charge to turn our 5X5 window into a 5 foot patio door hole... I think most of all, the $3,000 price do do that bothers me. $7,800 for a patio door with the construction sounds very steep to me!

Anyway, if anyone knows of good Schuco dealers in the Metro DC/Virginina area, we would be VERY grateful for your feedback!
Thanks all for this great forum!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 81
Offline
censorship at its finest nmmmm always on this site.
you try to post honest repls and the powers that rule it never post true answers
i will try to email you


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:25 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:58 pm
Posts: 1326
Location: Northern & Central Illinois, Chicago suburbs
Offline
handyman19619 wrote:
censorship at its finest nmmmm always on this site.
you try to post honest repls and the powers that rule it never post true answers
i will try to email you


Are you sure you are logging in successfully before you try to post? If not, it will not let you post.
I can't imagine why anyone would censor you. It's not like you are controversial, insulting, or anything like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Metro DC Schuco (or comparable window) dealers/installer
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 31
Offline
nmmmm wrote:
We would be very glad to hear from any dealers/installers in the Metro DC area!

Thanks![/b]




OK I AM DYING HERE...SO WHAT EVER HAPPENED..dID YOU CANCEL, FOLD OR CALL.....TELL US...WE ARE DYING TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED....AND PLEASE RE-POST YOUR PERCIEVED CENSORED REPLYS.....I CAN'T STAND THE SUSPENSE ANYMORE!!!!!!! :shock:


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