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 Post subject: What's the deal with 100%virgin vinyl myth?Everyonetakealook
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:21 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:33 pm
Posts: 50
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Did you known in the United States a window manufacturer can say their window is made with 100% virgin vinyl but only has to use 70% actual virgin vinyl powder and the rest cheaper mixed vinyl pellets in the actual manufacturer of a vinyl window? Nice United States Labeling Standards.

There are only 3 manufactures in the United States can actually say they only use 100% virgin vinyl powder. Do you know which ones? They might surprise all of you.

1. Schuco
2. Polybau
3. Amerimax(only window manufacturer that is AAMA rated to meet ASTM D4726-02(American Standard for Testing and Meaterials Standard) for color retention. This is stated on their Amerimax warranty too. Look it up guys. I believe the othe two manufactures could meet this standard if tested.

Pretty interesting stuff. So what does this mean? That most of the vinyl windows COULD yellow.

If you think I am not stating this incorrectly let me know.

Bryan
pbvert@yahoo.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:32 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:46 pm
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i agree with that sentiment

coming from a background in design and color theory, I bet a large amount of people will never realize their windows have yellowed unless they put a sheet of white paper up to the window.

This is what our Milgard rep told us about the yellow vinyl thing... Supposedly (and I say this with extreme reluctance), milgard windows *might* turn yellow over time, at which point "what do you care, they have a warranty" was his sentiment.

I think it's a major scam, and I'll wave the conspiracy theory flag for a bit here, but it's something you have to think about from an economics level: How much more expensive would it be for milgard to produce a 100% color retaining vinyl window, vs, How much is spent on how many people actually notice their windows turn yellow over time and put in a replacement request. I think they gamble that a lot of people will not notice, and out of others that notice, not a lot will really care about making a big deal about it.

My dad is notorious about that kind of thing. He got his windows re-done, and one of them had a latch that malfunctioned so I told him to call the company he bought from. His attitude was "Eh, I'll just leave it alone.. don't open that window much anyway"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 135
Location: ne ohio
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you must have done alot of research. there are over 300 window manufacturers in the us and according to your statistics there are only three that use 100% virgin vinyl. and of course they just happen to be the brands you sell. i was talking to a customer the other day that is chemical engineer and he told me that it is impossible to have 100% virgin vinyl. he said about 98% would be tops. he said there are always additives. he has nothing to gain so i don't know why he would lie. anyone have any thoughts on that?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:21 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:21 am
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This point was made to us by our Schuco rep-- that labeling requirements allow for window manufacturers to use a fair amount of non-"virgin" vinyl but they can still advertise that it's made from "virgin vinyl." The way I understood it, the "100% virgin" refers to the vinyl, not the whole window, since our rep also said that obviously there must be adhesives and binding agents to hold it all together. I'm told that Schuco's are made with 100% virgin vinyl (no recycled, etc.)-- don't know about other brands.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:31 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:46 pm
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windowrep wrote:
you must have done alot of research. there are over 300 window manufacturers in the us and according to your statistics there are only three that use 100% virgin vinyl. and of course they just happen to be the brands you sell. i was talking to a customer the other day that is chemical engineer and he told me that it is impossible to have 100% virgin vinyl. he said about 98% would be tops. he said there are always additives. he has nothing to gain so i don't know why he would lie. anyone have any thoughts on that?


maybe he just didn't want to agree? =) Or maybe he's taking the technicality in another direction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the vinyl powder itself has the % of virginity, although it needs to be mixed in with other additives to reach PVC state. I think that's what Bryan is talking about.

So the comment is not about the entire PVC material being 100% virgin vinyl, just the pure vinyl ingredient used is 100% as opposed to a combination of different vinyl ingredients.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 135
Location: ne ohio
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that makes sense.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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Actually, that's not even bad, since I've been told that it only needs 30%, plus or minus actual vinyl to be called vinyl.

I can't believe it's only three companies though


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 Post subject: you don't want virgin vinyl
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:15 pm 

Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 2:09 pm
Posts: 10
Location: S.F. Bay Area
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Virgin vinyl is the term applied to vinyl that is extruded for the first time. Regrind is the term given to vinyl that has been extruded, then the parts are ground up into small "pellets" and can be re-extruded. The implication is that "virgin vinyl" is purer or superior to reground vinyl. As a thermo plastic, PVC can be reprocessed, typically, around three times with little degradation to the compound. After that, additional processing "uses up" some of the lubricants and other additives that are used in the extrusion process.

Most companies believe a mixture of vinyl is better than pure for strength. (thats why only a few use pure)

As far as fading goes, it depends on what kind of inhibitors they use and how much, its the INHIBITOR which prevents the fading,
but all vinyl, fiberglass, aluminum and wood WILL FADE, the thing you want is for it to FADE EVENLY.

This is what Milgard claims their formula will do, fade evenly, no streaking or uneven color.....

BTW Amerimax is a Canadien company


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:33 pm
Posts: 50
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The reason isnt to make it stronger it is to save MONEY. Pure powder is the strongest vinyl available on the market but is expensive. The United States lets manufacturers get away with only 70%. The rest is pellets but these pellets are recycled vinyl. They are not stronger. And when this recycled vinyl is exposed to the elements it breaks down over time. There are other clemicals used to help this vinyl not break down as fast.

Amerimax is owned by Euramax, a European company. NOT CANADIAN> It is a leading producer of aluminum, steel, vinyl, copper and fiberglass products for original equipment manufacturers, distributors, contractors and home centers in North America. www.euramax.com

Euramax owns many companies throughout the world:

Amerimax Building Products(ABP)-has 15 manufacturing facilites in the US with a broad range of materials for the transportation, residential window, residential and commercial patio cover, fabricated/OEM, laminated products and manufactured housing industries. ABP has 9 metal fabrication facilities located across the US, two vinnyl window manufacturing centers and state of the art lamination facility.

Amerimax Diverdified Products, Inc. which is the worlds largest manufacturer of gutter guards and accessories.

Amerimax Home Products, Inc is the leading manufacturer of metal rain-carrying systems in the United States. Having 8 plants in the US.

Berger Brothers Company is a manufacturer of roof drainage products used for remodeling and renovation markets. They also product residential snow guards. Berger Brothers offers more than 2000 products.

Ellbee Limited is a major supplier of windows and entrance doors in both alumium and PVCu for the UK market.

Euramax Coated Products BV is coating alumium and steel for recreational vehicles, industrial, architectural, building, transportation and container markets. Services are throughout Europe and Asia.

Euramax Coated Products Limited operates as a producer and supplier of painted aluminum and steel coil and sheets to the general industrial markets in UK Scandinavia, Middle East.

Euromax Industries SA has 50 years of experience in the finishing and fabrication of aluminum extrusions and the production of glazed windows.

They also own Fabral which has 8 facilities in the US that produces metal roofing and siding.

Pretty big company that sells more than windows.

Hope this helps.


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