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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:14 pm 
i did state i a previous post that i was wrong for adding a website. but i am in no way backpeddling i stand behind every product i sell and install . and if somebody wants a lower end window because that is what the can afford well sell it to them . i have never claimed that silverline is the best window out there . i have everything i have invested in my business as im sure all of us do. i also am not tring to drum up any business off this board . some of you went in to attack mode when you found i was here .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:59 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Tulsa
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I'm just a consumer and I know I'm not the only one who makes the mistake of buying cheap windows and ends up regretting it.
It's only been a year since my purchase and I'm looking into quality replacements.
Even if us consumers do buy the garbage $189 windows, we'll be back to buy the real products eventually and we're sure to tell everyone we know to stay away from such and such trash windows and their co. :D


clear choice, I hope your windows and the installs aren't as sloppy as your posts.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:07 pm
Posts: 37
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rmleer
I view you as MORE than JUST a consumer as you had mentioned. A true professional can get a ton of insight from consumers shopping for windows, or who have already purchased windows like yourself. This can help raise the bar for some of us that strive for perfection. However, perfection comes with a price and can't be had for one-hundred and eighty nine dollars.

rmleer do you feel you bought windows out of igornance (not knowing) or because of the pitch the salesman through????????

Did you do any research BEFORE you bought???????


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:59 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Tulsa
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I bought out of ignorance and thought anything would be better than the originals.
My french doors were also in bad shape and lots of cold air was finding it's way inside.

When the salesman handed me the price list for the windows, it made me feel like I wouldn't have to worry about an outrageous quote.
I asked about model 2000 (cheapest window) and was told "We don't sell that one anymore"
When I asked him why, he said something like... honestly, it's junk so we don't sell it anymore.
I guess after hearing that I thought I may actually be dealing with someone who's halfway honest.
I don't think the price difference was a whole lot compared to the 4000's (which I purchased)


No I didn't do any research.
Obviously a bad mistake.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:41 pm
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Researching is very important for the brand of window and also who you choose to install your windows. I am an installer of windows I have been for 18 years and I know first hand how important it is for customers to research because I work in the homes of many customers that previously never researched product or companies they have dealt with in the past. I have removed old installs ranging from 20 to 1 year installs and I would have to say its about 50/50 bad window or bad install. I most often find fogged glass, broken parts, uninsulated replacements,poorly caulked replacements,never been caulked replacements,inferior junk caulking that cracked or peeled off, replacements without mounting screws, and rotted exterior wood frames that need replaced due to a bad past capping jobs, also i find alot of previous replacements were not measured correctly and installed anyhow floating in the opening. Correct measurements and installation is a must in this buisness along with premium sealants , insulation and good quality aluminum trim coil. Ask alot of questions when you have a seller in your home, get a product demonstration, get information on the glass such as double or triple pane, Low E, Argon or Krypton filled,ask about U-Factor, Solar Heat Gain Coefficient, Visible Transmittance, ask if the sellers window is NFRC certified or if the products manufacture is an AAMA member. Ask the seller about the product warranty and if the seller offers a workmanship warranty. Ask the seller about the exterior sealants and trim coils they use and research those products as well. Make sure the seller has a good installation crew that does the job right, ask the seller for refrences and call these people and ask them about the installers who worked on thier house (you should get an honest answer).When you make your choice talk to your installers and ask them questions when they arrive, they shouldn't mind if they are truely professionals.BOTTOM LINE IS : ALOT MORE TO THINK ABOUT THAN JUST THE PRICE!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:59 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Tulsa
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I was talking to a buddy of mine at work last night who also happens to be a very succesful realtor on the side here in Tulsa.
He says Window World still runs the $189 ads in the paper.
Like I said, my salesman told me last year that they did not sell that window anymore because it was junk.
That's either false advertisement or my salesman was lying to get me to buy the little more expensive and just as crappy window.

I can't wait for the day when this co. hits the fan. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 3639
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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rmleer wrote:
I was talking to a buddy of mine at work last night who also happens to be a very succesful realtor on the side here in Tulsa.
He says Window World still runs the $189 ads in the paper.
Like I said, my salesman told me last year that they did not sell that window anymore because it was junk.
That's either false advertisement or my salesman was lying to get me to buy the little more expensive and just as crappy window.

I can't wait for the day when this co. hits the fan. :D


They scirt the FTC regulations with careful wording and clauses at the bottom of their advertisements.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:06 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:41 pm
Posts: 2
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If the advertised window was not being offered because it is junk I think you may get that fan wish. :lol: unfortunately you have to go through the process of replacing your windows again but this time I bet you will do alot of researching and I am certain the results will be more rewarding, I am not saying go out and buy the most expensive window you can find, just be leary of the "Monty Hall" lets make a deal type companies and try to be smarter than a 5th grader and do some research :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: HOW DOES THIS EFFECT YOUR MARKET?
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:44 am 

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:05 am
Posts: 1
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I post this quite late in resonse to earlier discussions regarding WW and Clear Choice. The earlier posts were dated from 2007 through 2008. I became a Clear Choice dealer in Southern California in 2007. At that time there were approximately 75 dealers in the U.S. There are now over 125 in the U.S. and Canada. These are the points I'd like to make (without giving my competitors too much inside information!)
1. Clear Choice is licensee business model, not a franchise. Dealers pay a modest annual license fee for all corporate support and then a percentage of purchases from the window manufacturer is paid to corporate.
2. The $185 advertised price is company-wide and means different things according to geography. As you can imagine, a replacement window in Arkansas is going to be less expensive than the same window in Los Angeles considering the tax base, cost of labor, overhead such as workmen's comp., etc. In my market the $185 price that has a disclaimer in the advertising, is for a block frame window (a new construction window with the nail fin cut off) for a wood window replacement in the older homes that typically have wood double hung windows. All our advertising note that the price advertised is for any window up to a maximum of 84 United Inches, which is a 4/0 X 3/0 window (36 inches plus 48 inches.) I've had competitors tell my prospective customers that I can't possibly sell a quality window for $185. I carry a list of customers with names and telephone numbers that the prospect can call and verify that they indeed purchased their windows that fit the advertised disclaimer for $185.
3. With regard to quality, the windows we sell are manufactured by Amsco, a company that has been making windows over 60 years. The entry level window we advertise carries a fully transferrable lifetime warranty. Clear Choice dealers have the option to extend the warranty for the full 50 year period, which my dealership does. Once a customer buys from us they have a full peace of mind warranty. Other than a few exceptions such as earthquake or fire, there is no charge for any repairs.
4. Finally, with regard to installation. This, in my mind, is a key consideration a shopper should consider when deciding which window to purchase. Window dealers will typically hire sub-contractors to install the windows they sell, the same a Lowes or Home Depot. Usually, the sub-contractor is paid a set price per window. This means the installer makes more money by installing more windows. Clear Choice dealers may pay less per window but the installer makes more money becasue he's kept busier. The end result is the dealer has lower overhead and can sell the window for less, which is good for the consumer, and the contrator makes more money so it's a win-win for everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: HOW DOES THIS EFFECT YOUR MARKET?
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:56 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:51 pm
Posts: 1579
Location: Northern,Virginia
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What's the very best, top of the line window sold by CC?


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 Post subject: Re: HOW DOES THIS EFFECT YOUR MARKET?
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Posts: 1818
Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Hmmm, the customer gets a lower-end product, the dealer has to sell a million units to pay the bills, the sub also has to install a million units to pay the bills thereby encouraging quantity over quality....leading to overworked staff and unhappy customers. Sorry, but I fail to recognize the "win-win" in that equation. :roll: ... A real win-win in the window industry is a customer finding a well-run, local company who provides excellent service, product, and installation all at a fair price. I think alot of consumersthink that the only choices are the sleazy $1300 per opening guys, or the $185-$189 guys in the dumpster. A quality window installed (and complete) by a qualified and reputable company will cost $400-$800 (with some exceptions). That's it. End of story. If you pay much more, you've gotten ripped off. If you've paid much less, you've either gotten junk, or a decent product installed by a guy with no business sense who won't be around to service you in 6 months.... As has been mentioned, I have less problem with the "ala carte" pricing as I do with the misrepresentation that you get "the best for less". That is why WW is not a member of the BBB, due to their misleading advertisements(per Replacement Contractor magazine, August 08). If people want to buy a cheap window that's fine (even though I dont recommend it), just don't blatantly lie to them and insist it is anything close to a high end product.


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 Post subject: Re: HOW DOES THIS EFFECT YOUR MARKET?
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 9:39 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:25 pm
Posts: 158
Location: GulfBreezeWindows
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HomeSealed wrote:
Hmmm, the customer gets a lower-end product, the dealer has to sell a million units to pay the bills, the sub also has to install a million units to pay the bills thereby encouraging quantity over quality....leading to overworked staff and unhappy customers. Sorry, but I fail to recognize the "win-win" in that equation. :roll: ... A real win-win in the window industry is a customer finding a well-run, local company who provides excellent service, product, and installation all at a fair price. I think alot of consumersthink that the only choices are the sleazy $1300 per opening guys, or the $185-$189 guys in the dumpster. A quality window installed (and complete) by a qualified and reputable company will cost $400-$800 (with some exceptions). That's it. End of story. If you pay much more, you've gotten ripped off. If you've paid much less, you've either gotten junk, or a decent product installed by a guy with no business sense who won't be around to service you in 6 months.... As has been mentioned, I have less problem with the "ala carte" pricing as I do with the misrepresentation that you get "the best for less". That is why WW is not a member of the BBB, due to their misleading advertisements(per Replacement Contractor magazine, August 08). If people want to buy a cheap window that's fine (even though I dont recommend it), just don't blatantly lie to them and insist it is anything close to a high end product.



Window World Dealers are a member of the BBB. The Window World here has 0 complaints against them too, which really irks me.


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 Post subject: Re: HOW DOES THIS EFFECT YOUR MARKET?
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Posts: 1818
Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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It appears as though you are correct about that... RC Aug 08 states that WW withdrew from the BBB over a dispute regarding their misleading pitch, but it seems as though that info is outdated. :oops: ....That being said, it does not change any of my points. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: HOW DOES THIS EFFECT YOUR MARKET?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:36 am 

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 10:07 am
Posts: 1
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I have to agree with one of the above posters. It's not that WW or CC is so bad for doing what they do. It's no worse than what Champion, or Dixie HC, or some of the other higher end companies do. They sell products that are actually sometimes inferior to what a consumer can buy for $300 at the $800 to $1500 price range. This is highway robbery!

By the same token, WW & CC are made up mostly of independent business owners and you will have to check out the ones in your area before deciding whether or not you can trust them. If they have a bad BBB record and a ton of complaints, steer clear of them. But if you can find that they are one of the "good ones" there is no reason not to use them.

I would much rather take my chances on someone who is not trying to rake me over the coals with a super high price, when in fact the window is probably not any better than what I could buy for less than half as much with someone else.

I have had Champion out to give me an estimate before and they ended up being just a shade under $800 per window. When pressed on certain technical data (vinyl wall thickness, U factor & SHGC ratings compared to less expensive companies, the real reason they use foam filling in their windows, etc...) they all of sudden had a case of the "I don't know, I will have to look that one up." syndrome. All he kept telling me was, "If you go with one of those low priced companies like Window World or Clear Choice, you will get what you pay for!" So I asked him, what am I really getting for what I pay for with you? Other than a normal, white vinyl window with average ratings and a lifetime warranty (just like everyone else's). He said, "Oh, everything is all inclusive with our price, we won't nickel/dime you like they will (WW & CC). They will charge you for every little thing, and those $189 windows won't be $189 anymore!"

Well, I had WW & CC out for estimates as well, and both of them came in around $325 per window (for what I was looking for) and both started out at $189 and did in fact add for every little thing, however, when it was all said and done, I was getting exactly what I wanted AND was less than half of the Champion price. I don't really see the issue that some people have with the fact that they advertise $189, when Champion's advertisement was just as bad. It said 40% off sale! When the rep came to my home he started me out with a MSRP price of $1200 per window! He said, "How does $19,200 (for 16 windows) sound for your project? Is that within your budget?" I told him he must be CRAZY if he thought I would pay anywhere near that for windows! Then he said, "Oh, but that is the price BEFORE the 40% off discount. How does $11,520 sound? Is that more in line with your budget? Can you see the value in our window? These are the windows you want, right?"

I was so disgusted I told him he hadn't shown me anything that was worth anywhere near $700 per window! He then proceeded to spend another hour in my home trying everything imaginable to get me to sign the contract. And oh by the way, the $11,520 was not the final price! There were additional items that he added to the job when he finally did leave the estimate that brought the final price to almost $800 per window! How is that better that what WW or CC does?

I will admit that I did not like the quality of the WW window (Alside). I felt it was a cheaper type window. However, the CC window (Vista) seems to be a very high quality window (compared to the Alside or Champion window) for the price. Both the WW & CC sales reps where in my home less than 1 hour, and showed me everything that I needed to know about the windows and the overall project. The Champion sales rep was in my home for almost 3 hours, and was very angry when he left without the sale. He tried to make me feel bad about not buying right away and told me I would be missing out on a couple of discounts he could give me ONLY if I bought my windows while he was in the home. I felt pressured and I felt like he was giving me "a line of bull". He said he would give $500 off if I would like them put a yard sign in my yard and he told me that if I would give them a letter of recommendation, he would take another $500 off, but those were only good that night! If I didn't sign, those "advertising & marketing dollars" would go to another Champion customer and my price would be $1000 higher. Is that even legal?

So far, I haven't purchased windows from anyone, however, being in the home improvements business most of my adult life, I would feel a lot more comfortable taking my chances with one of the discount companies, than one of the higher priced ones. I am looking for the best value, not the cheapest, not the most expensive, but a good quality window at a fair price. And, I would like to deal with someone who treats me with respect and respects that I am not stupid (to fall for gimmicks & fake discounts).

Anyone else agree?


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 Post subject: Re: HOW DOES THIS EFFECT YOUR MARKET?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:05 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:51 pm
Posts: 1579
Location: Northern,Virginia
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The window market is not as black and white as you seem to think it is. There is a middle ground. You can purchase a decent quality window in the $450-$650 range if you look around a little bit.

Alside Windows have a reputation for inconsistent QC, and high air infiltration ratings which get worse as the window ages. I looked at a job today with 20 Alside Excalibur windows installed 10 years ago and there were 4 the homeowner couldn't even get to open or tilt anymore. He admits he made a big mistake being suckered with a low price. Now it will cost $10K-12K to replace them.

I would suggest you look at some of the windows recommended on this site.


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