Whole house or partial house replacement.

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randy
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Re: Whole house or partial house replacement.

#16 Post by randy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:27 am

Have you tried calling Don Young to ask? (214) 630-0934

LoneStarGuy
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Re: Whole house or partial house replacement.

#17 Post by LoneStarGuy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:11 pm

Thanks Randy. I called this morning. They said they'd have someone call me back with the info.

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Re: Whole house or partial house replacement.

#18 Post by LoneStarGuy » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:30 pm

So the DYC windows will meet egress if we cut back the drywall and install from the outside, so that is good news. :D

I am puzzled why the DYC website lists the air leakage info on the single hung at .17-.19 cfm/ft2 which is higher than that listed for their double hung at .11 cfm. Their double slider shows as .17 cfm and the single slider is .12 cfm. I've asked them to confirm those numbers.

NT lists their Executive double hung at .09 cfm and single hung at .03cfm. The NT double slider is .18 cfm. NT told me they won't meet egress in a 36x60 single hung, so I am leaning on DYC if they can show me better single hung AL numbers.

I can't seem to find a website that will show reports for AL - SHGC and u-factor seem to be much easier to find.

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Re: Whole house or partial house replacement.

#19 Post by LoneStarGuy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:29 am

I got my answer about AL from DYC. The said the posted results (.17) were accurate for the window that was built for the test. The cynic in me thinks it may be related to their advertising for their aluminum windows - "It would take FIVE DYC 8200/8800 Series windows to leak as much air as ONE of the typical residential vinyl windows."

To see the windows for myself, we took a road trip (4 hours round trip) today to my regional Don Young office.

I was impressed with the product. The single hung uses the same bottom design of the double hung (.11 cfm/ft2) and should definitely have better AL numbers. The DYC rep agreed with that. The screen was much easier to remove than i expected - so should be no issue washing both sashes as needed.

We also liked how the window looked and worked. He answered a ton of questions and showed me many different options. We found out about doing a custom grid pattern my wife wanted and how to handle a narrow window in the laundry room. No pressure and great info.

In contract to that experience, I had another vendor out quoting Simonton Profinish Contractor for $5000 more and it didn't even include the reinforced meeting rail or double strength glass. I complained that and the glass warranty being only 20 years and he tried to upsell me to Reflections 5500 double hungs but I pointed out they had prorated warranty past 20 years. Argh.

As the NT Executive didn't meet egress, I've decided to go with DYC 5200/5700's contingent on the pricing for the custom grid the wife wanted - the DYC said it would ought to be cheaper than colonial. Got to keep her happy. I even endured time in her favorite shoe store on the trip and ate at a vegetarian restaurant.

As for the install, to meet egress in DYC 5200 we need to cut the sheetrock and sill back and install from the outside. It seems most providers in my area want to just remove the old window and slap the new one in and caulk. I think I prefer to cut away sills or sheetrock to maximize glass space plus am not a fan of having sheetrock stuck between the frame and the stud. My installer said he does it when needed or wanted and seemed to offer reasonable labor charge for it. Any pros/cons of each method? How much more time does it take?

Now the decision is the Cardinal XL Edge or Duralite. I am leaning on Duralite as it seems to be better performing, but not sure what is best for the hot summers to cold winters and wild temp swings we see here in central Texas.

randy
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Re: Whole house or partial house replacement.

#20 Post by randy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:02 am

Cutting the sheetrock and sill back is the correct way to install the window. Many companies in Texas have (unfortunately for the homeowner) gone to sliding the window inside the sheetrock and sill because it’s faster and easier on them. However, it then requires additional snap in trim around the perimeter which looks like crap, and further reduces the amount of visible glass. It does take more time, which is why so many contractors are doing it the easier way, but it’s the proper method.

By the way, most homeowners don’t pay enough attention to the installation details to know the difference until the job is completed, so good job on doing your due diligence on the front side - as a result you’ll be much happier in the years to come.

Not to dissuade you from using Don Young vinyl windows, but the tested result they got was what they earned, and if they could have achieved a better result, they would have. For the sales guy to infer somehow that the window tested didn’t do so well, but the windows you get will be better is either stupidity or dishonesty. (If I misunderstood the situation, please let me know and I will retract this.)

As to the spacer, the standard Duralite will be less expensive, and the performance difference between the two is so minuscule as to irrelevant. Having said that, any tempered glass units will have Cardinal’s XL Edge, so if you like everything to match throughout the house, that would be the only reason to upgrade.

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Delaware Mike
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Re: Whole house or partial house replacement.

#21 Post by Delaware Mike » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:22 pm

Well said Randy. I always cut back the rock and stool/sill. More work, however it looks so much better and the slips that I'm seeing in my part of the country allow too much of the jamb pocket to decrease which makes the blinds if they were in the head or upper jamb pocket to now be installed outside on the face of the rock. No thanks.

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Re: Whole house or partial house replacement.

#22 Post by LoneStarGuy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:17 pm

Thanks Randy - good info about the spacer needed for laminated glass. We only have one laminated window above the tub and it is the only window in that room so it won't be noticeable. I have decided on the Duralite then as it looked a little bit better especially if it costs less/same warranty.

I will definitely get them to cut back the drywall and probably will replace the MDF sills as some are in rough shape. I may tinker with removing the worst this weekend to see the condition under them to minimize install surprises. The bathtub window has a marble sill, so probably will have them leave that one alone.

As for the AL concerns, while Googling I found this interesting: https://www.energystar.gov/sites/defaul ... 0-2012.pdf

Based on the above, it helps their case to the EPA to have an AL test result of .17 cfm in vinyl. The fact the double hung 5400 was .11 cfm and they are so similar, I suspect/hope their single hung 5200 should do better. Their website even suggests that at: http://www.dycwindows.com/faq/anatomy.asp

Comparative Note:
We can help manage your expectations as to which generic window type has the best resistance to air and water penetration of your home. Think about the physical fact that energy follows the path of least resistance. Knowing this, the window with the least opportunities for such paths is the window with no operating sash, or the fixed-lite window. On the other extreme is the window with the most opportunities for paths, or the double hung window. This is because each sash has four undersized edges that hang removed from and inside the frame, separated only by a gasket system called “weather stripping” . It is the weather stripping that makes the difference in such designs between leaks and no leaks, and our industry has produced many ways to properly seal these otherwise exposed edges of sash. In between are all the other window types. Recognizing that there are exceptions to this generalization, in order of best to worst resistance to air and water infiltration by window design:

Picture Windows or Fixed-Lite
Casement Windows
Single Hung
Single Slider
Double Hung
Double Slider


I know a poorly installed or poorly adjusted window can leak more, so i am going to focus more effort on the install being done right. Getting a proper measure, using foam, good taping, etc.

I am not expecting the number's Soft-lite and other premium brands get, but in my area i can't seem to get those easily, especially from a company that also does siding. I can't justify the $4k price premium for Zen's Soft-lite product based on my energy bills.

Looking back at the thread, I almost went with the NT Executive but the installers one-year labor warranty didn't match the 20-year labor warranty offered by my Don Young installer, plus it wouldn't meet egress.

I really appreciate everyone's help, I know a lot more about the windows and know what I am getting into. I visited Windows on Washington's site and loved his description of weep holes. Ulta's site had a great deal of good info too - I love Randy's blog. I will post a followup after the install and once the electric bills start to come in.

LoneStarGuy
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Re: Whole house or partial house replacement. (Decision made)

#23 Post by LoneStarGuy » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:19 pm

So after some drama, my contract has been signed and accepted. We are going with the DYC 5100/5200. Wife is getting her custom grid (a Victorian/craftsman look) with an arch on top 1/3rd of the upper sash met by two verticals going up to the top of the window. The design has to be made at the Cardinal plant with the XL Edge. All other windows will be Duralite except the tempered bath window. We are going LoE-366 on 3 sides and LoE-340 on the SW side. We decided to leave the laundry room 1050 old aluminum single-hung in place. It is small enough i may tackle it a DIY at some point and I don't want to give up operability.

While we loved the specs on the NT product, we decided against NT as the installer only offered a 1-year labor warranty versus 20 years from the DYC installer and NT not meeting egress. NT also didn't seem to have anyone else in Austin installing them.

The other bids we got were Simonton ProFinish Contractor, WinCore, a local manufacturer named Ringer, Alside products at the lowest price (but don't do siding). We had one premium bid from Zen for their Karma(Softlite) product but at 30% more and them not doing siding we had to pass. Ringer though lost me when the wouldn't give me Air Leakage info - just saying it was similar to NT. We did like his product and warranty the best. We had one company quote the same DYC bid for $5000 more than what we settled on.

Our final price went up from our first window quote as we picked a custom-grid , added a window (double-mull single-hung instead of a single slider), specified the insulation as foam instead of batt, swapped out the two south-west facing to LoE-340, added nailing fins to all windows in siding. They will also measure from the outside to maximize glass/egress. I plan to post photos and follow-up thoughts questions later.

It is sad that all of the vendors in Austin I met do the faster, easier install of placing the window inside the drywall returns and sill. Since some of our MDF sills are in bad shape (kids leaving cold drink cups on them), I may just remove them prior to my final measure as well as the sheetrock returns so they or I can do wood trimmed openings. Oddly, my drywall returns are in perfect shape - we never did see any condensation in the 20 years we had this aluminum windows. Any thoughts on drywall returns or wood-trimmed?

Only add on left to price is the alarm system hookup that will be determined at final measure - anyone know what is reasonable for 17 windows? Current alarm has a small round magnet making contact w/ a small plunger type magnetic switch. Any ideas here? The installer is no longer around.

LoneStarGuy
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Re: Whole house or partial house replacement.

#24 Post by LoneStarGuy » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:17 pm

So I decided to remove the large MDF window seat sill, about 7 feet by 2.5 feet and found the OSB under it was in great condition. I was not surprised to see that under the window with a 1/2 inch gap with absolutely no insulation. The only thing keeping out the cold was a bit of caulk, and the nail fins of my builder-grade aluminum windows and a bit of siding. Argh. Who knows how much energy 25 cents of insulation would have saved over the last 20 years.

I then removed the MDF sill in the family room took about 2 minutes to pop off as it was held in by caulk and handful of tiny nails. This window was much tighter and the wood framing was in perfect shape. i may just remove all of the sills before they come to measure on Wednesday if they only take 2-3 minutes each. Still trying to decide how much I am willing to pay, or should expect to pay, to have the security system moved to the new windows.

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