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 Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: sfsilicon (---.net.americas.agilent.com)
Date:   

Hoping EZ will see this and share his thoughts...

Talked to my A contractor from the previous post and asked about the B5 license. They say B5 is a superset and includes the ability to do retrofit and new windows. C17 is a specialty license which is required if a contractor does not have a general building license (B5).

He said that the bottomline is that B5 is a superset they can do both retrofits and new construction. They have multiple top partner awards from Milguard over several years and have been in business for a long time.

Also scheduled an onsite inspection. He is requiring me to sign a contract with a 3 day remiss period after the onsite visit and final work scope.

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: E-Z (---.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
Date:   

Sfsilicon please cut and paste this adress on your browser.
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/licensing/classifications.asp
Then tell me how you can interpret that to say you can do windows. Can they do windows skillwise, obviously. by the book? No.
It is bad that with all the budget cuts the cslb has been forced to cut back and has allowed by lack of policing a lot of people to get into the scene of window replacement.

Out of respect for all the other trades i never engage in contracting on anything out of the scope of glazing. I do not know what you do for a living but i would guess you went to school for it and spent a lot of money and hours of studying to become what you are now. You would feel bad if somebody
was to take a shortcut and just say hey i can do that i have a Bachelors so what if you need a Masters a Bachelors is good enough. Or would you get a General practitioner Doctor to operate on you over a specialist on whatever it is ails you.
Sorry about the long post but this subject hits a nerve.

E-z
www.eazywindows.com

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: sfsilicon (---.client.comcast.net)
Date:   

Hi EZ,

I read your other post (polybau contractor) and checked the trade classifications website. Sorry I don't understand it all. :(

Sadly as you know from my other posts, I hear so many different things from each party that I don't know what is true any more. I do appreciate your feedback and know you spent a lot of time helping people on this forum. Thus I trust your comments, but I need your opinion on the following. Do you have a site that says specifically that a licensed replacement window contractor must have a B and C17 license? If this is illegal the CSLB should be doing a better job and requiring window companies to have the appropriate licenses!!!

The person I talked to at A was the sales manager. He explained the license differences as best he could and immeadiately wanted to hook me up with the owner and license holder Rena so she can explain the license requirements. Rena called me later and we talked 30 minutes concerning the licenses. She spent so much time with me because she had not heard this question for a long while. She studied for both licenses and but ended up getting her license in only one. This is her reasoning:

- Her niche is residential windows. She didnt not plan to build windows or do the commercial work that is covered in the C17 license. She specifically buys windows built by other companies and specializes in installing them as retrofits or new construction. For any work on the frame, cutting, stucco, etc a general license is required. She also asked her peers and supliers what qualifications she should take and B was the minimum. C17 was only needed if she planned to do comercial construction, were glasing and window building was a requirement.

- She then told me that prior to the introduction of the newer double pane windows primarily glasers were doing the window installations (new construction). You had people only with a C17 ripping out frames and doing stuco work, doing bad weatehr sealing, etc. Thus the industry was challenged to develop windows that people only with a glasing license could install. Thus replacement windows were created.
- Finally she is very big on training and doing quality work. She sends her people to all the Milgard installation classes and has won multiple awards from them (i hope not just sales awards:) They also guarantee a lifetime warranty for the installation work.

Anyway I explained the situation that the sales manager did not want to do a site inspection without a contract. She immeadiately scheduled an appointment without any strings. She explained that they had a manufacturer sale and that could be why the sales manager was requesting a contract so he could guarantee the price I was quoted.

Again another long post and I appologize for that. All I want is a good contractor that can install my windows to code, will guarantee the work and fix it if something breaks. What do you think of this vendor?

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: E-Z (---.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
Date:   

This is straight from the CALIFORNIA STATE LICENSE BOARD explanation on what a General Contractor(B license) Can do. I am sorry but that is Crystal clear(no punt intended)
i cannot put it any clearer.


"A general building contractor may take a prime contract or a subcontract for a framing or carpentry project. However, a general building contractor shall not take a prime contract for any project involving trades other than framing or carpentry unless the prime contract requires at least two unrelated building trades or crafts other than framing or carpentry, or unless the general building contractor holds the appropriate specialty license or subcontracts with an appropriately licensed specialty contractor to perform the work.. The general building contractor may not count framing or carpentry in calculating the two unrelated trades necessary in order for the general building contractor to be able to take a prime contract or subcontract for a project involving other trades."

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: sfsilicon (---.net.americas.agilent.com)
Date:   

Hi EZ,

Called the CSLB and they confirmed what you mentioned above. I'll never doubt you again. ;)

I'm assuming you do all your installations in house, but have people working or helping you. Do you have to be physically on site to warranty the work or are all your installers licensed?

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: E-Z (---.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
Date:   

I myself am an installer and do the installations with my dad and another helper.

E-z

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: sfsilicon (---.net.americas.agilent.com)
Date:   

I've heard of several stores having their own installer crews. They are normally trained by the person with the license. Does the person with the license have to be present during the work to guarantee the installation?

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: E-Z (---.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
Date:   

No they do not be to be present. As the owner you can train your employees to go out there and install.

E-Z

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: mark (---.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
Date:   

Wouldn't retrofitting new windows be considered part of the definition of "framing" which when then make it perfectly legal for a general (b) contractor to take on any window only job?

Also, if the general contractor cuts down, moves electrical, adds new sills or paint to the job of installing windows wouldn't they then qualify automatically under the "two unrelated building trades or crafts" 'rule'? i.e, "painting and glazing"?

I think you take your crusade to far when it comes to the C-17 vs B and B-5 debate, but I'm right there with you when it comes to unlicensed or true out of license contractors suddenly in the window business.

To the public: Get references, check license status and know who's actually going to be doing the work, because any business can hire someone to get them licensed, then legally send out untrained hacks to do the work. Never fall for the "owner-builder" trick, which can get you in a heap of liability trouble. Never pay more than 10% or $1000, which ever is less for getting any window job started. (California)- www.cslb.ca.gov

E-z, if you are a three man operation right now, keep it that way or double to six maximum so you can personally inspect all your jobs, or you never know, you might become to big for your own good, then some little one man operation is going to be knocking YOUR product.

Good luck to all the legally licenced window contractors (b and c-17) and homeowners remember: Caveat emptor!

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: E-z (---.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
Date:   

Mark, thanks for your posting. It is not a crusade as you state as i have a lot of general contractor friends who i even sell product to because the windows become incidental to a major remodeling job that they may have going. I am educating the customer in regards to a contractor who solely advertises to be a window company or a glaziers outfit when the cslb clearly states in order to have a business whose specialty falls in the realm of a specialty contractor you must hold that specialty license to solely advertise that trade. I did not wrote the regulations i did not took it upon myself to say that is the way it is. If you have been reading this post and others people have actually called the cslb and verified that information, and if i was somebody else i would submit tens of contractors information as a complaint to the cslb for falsely advertising to be a window company when in fact they are general builders or a b contractor. Please call the cslb and ask them if you can advertise as a window company or as a window contractor or even take on a window contract without holding your glazier license you'll see what they tell you. This issue is overposted and you are arguing a dead point that has been clarified if you only read the rest of the posts.
Note that the above does not involve or refers to Allbrand windows as they are looking or have already a c-17 qualifier, and according to the cslb you are entitled to conduct business as a c-17 glazier if you had a c-17 license and lost your qualifier up to a year . If you want Mark i can send you a list of B licensed contractors advertising as a window company including websites and craiglist posts.I keep all this stuff in fact i think i talked to you before regarding this issue and you changed your advertising methods which are still in violation but i will not waste my time trying to get general contractors busted instead all i can do is try to educate the customers, you get farther in life helping people than hurting them. Again thanks for your post.

E-z
www.eazywindows.com

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: mark (---.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
Date:   

Thank you for your post, as well. I think that this type of public forum can be an excellent way to educate both the consumer as well as the contractor, but it can be a double edge sword... I've read posts from people who dispise Certainteed and then recommend Anlin in the same post, oblivious that "Anlin Industries" is a former Certainteed manufacturer, for 10 years no less! (see www.anlin.com)... And for the record, I totally agree with you that Anlin, Polybau and Simonton are "top of the food chain" when it comes to vinyl windows as well as a few others out there including Certainteed. In my opinion Empire Pacific Windows and Milgard Windows should also be mentioned in the same breath, but I digress...and I think I might be starting to spam which is not my intention and I'm sure that there are many more window manufacturers that are right up there with the above mentioned.

Back to the lecture at hand! Licensed General Builders can not advertise as a window specialist as can a C-17. You are correct there. "Mosiacy Construction" (as an example) cannot be "Mosiacy Windows" without the C-17, but they can install windows as long as they follow the guidelines of the CSLB , which I'm sure is exactly what your friends do when they buy windows through you! Your own friends with General Contractors licenses are out there installing windows but I wonder if they've read your post regarding the issue of General Builders at the top of this thread and I quote "can they do windows skillwise, obviously. by the book? No."

Yes they can! They are using the guidelines that allow them to use "two unrelated trades" and I hate to use quotes for this, but for lack of a better term...the "loophole". If not, would you really allow your friends the General Builders to install windows without the C-17 license that you so passionately protect? Where does it say that the two unrelated trades must be part of a "major remodeling job"?

If I have taken anything out of context, I apologize. Here's the thing to cut and paste to your browser one more time for those of you who would like to really read it, unabridged: www.cslb.ca.gov/licensing/classifications.asp

As for calling the CSLB, good luck! It's like flipping a coin to see what answer they'll give you. The advertising point you made is valid. I'm waiting for a response in writing that will once and for all put this to rest from them and I will be glad to share it with you if it ever comes. I have written them!

Please do not say that all General Buiders can not install windows when you are out there bidding. It is misleading to the public.

And finally, E-z, of eazywindows.com, you are doing an execellent job and any contractor that offers help to someone who is doing a self installation by having them send you photos as you have in the past is all right in my book. Good luck to you and your father.

This thread is so long I think I'm just going to go into the textile industry!

PS, the end, no more, finished, caput... it's a dead horse!

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: E-z (---.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
Date:   

Thanks for your educated response, I will leave this issue alon as like you said this thread is long enough, i just need to clarify some quotes of mines you used. I don't want to say they were taken out of context but
1. My general contractor friends know how i feel about this issue and everything i post here i tell them, in this case i was talking about a company that was advertising as a window company. They were listed as blablabla construction(just an example) and were advertising as blablabla windows, point that you even agree on.

I sell my General contractor friends windows as part of an addition job or a remodeling that involves 2 or more unrelated trades. Like siding replacement or insulation or sheetrock.
If i tell people that a b contractor cannot bid their retrofit project is because i am right, they can't or let me rephrase they shouldn't. I am not misinforming people. If their project has no other trades invloved i am right.

Just the other day i turned down a job and refered it to a general contractor because it involved opening a window by a fireplace, moving an electrical main box, and moving plumbing.Now if i want to be "loopholie" i can do incidental work that's out of the scope of my classification as long as is not just that work alone. But i do not do that for a living so i declined the job and gave it to a general that can quordinate it with an electrician and a plumber while he would take care of the framing.

 

 Re: Contractor license B5 + C17 vs B5
Author: mark (---.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
Date:   

Sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree.

Good luck again and take care.

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