help please

[jd10013]

Well, I've taken that horrible plunge and decided to replace some windows. What I need some help with is an estimate. I'm looking to replace 4 double hung windows in two holes. each hole has 2 windows together. each window is about 70x36, and are wood. the outside of the house is vinyl siding. the windows are on the second floor of a split level house. anyhow, I had a local contractor give me an estimate, and he ended up giving me a sell so hard a car salesman would blush. needless to say he refused to give me anything in writing and I've written him off. he still calls twice a day though. So, I gave home depot a call. And I know how some people feel about HD, but I'm not looking for opinions on HD, just on the price they gave me. and they gave me 2. to replace the four double hung windows (2 holes) with simonton 6500 series including installation, removal and everything.......2602. They also gave me a quote for the American craftsman AC 12 for 2058, everything included. Is that a good price, or am I being taken yet again? The only other thing that might be a factor is location. I live in northern Virginia, and its a little more expensive here than other places in the country.

any help would be appreciated.

[Windows on Washington]

The Simonton window is a decent window but can likely be duplicated by a local contractor for a more competitive price.

The AC-12 is a Silverline product that is bottom barrel to say the least.

[jd10013]

The Simonton window is a decent window but can likely be duplicated by a local contractor for a more competitive price.

The AC-12 is a Silverline product that is bottom barrel to say the least.

but, is 2600 installed (for the simonton)in the northern VA area a rip off, or is it a fair, if not the best, price? to me, it isn't worth sitting through 2 or three more 2 hour presentations to save $150. but, saving a more subatantial amount of money is a different story.

And another question, why do people think the ac 12 is such crap? I'm not saying it isn't, I'm a novice when it comes to this stuff. But, as I said, I'm looking to replace original builder grade wood windows in my house. most of the windows in the house are fine. Its just the 4 in the front of the house that recieve all the weather that are rotting away. Anyhow, being that the house is average working class house, I think it's safe to assume the windows are probably the cheapest the builder could find at lowes or somewhere similar. Being as I got 13 or so years out of them, and that they never broke or fell apart (just rotted, mostly at the sill) how bad could the AC 12's be compared to what I had? and wouldn't vinyl eliminate the rot problem? I just don't get the concept of durability of a window. they just sit there. How can they break or fall apart, or wear out? I can understand draft, UV and other aspects, but how does a heavier more durable window matter?

I have to say though, I never thought replacing a couple windows would be such a god awfull pain in the arse. I'm stating to think it would be easier to sell and buy another house then replace these dam windows.

[Windows on Washington]

I am always shocked when people say that buying windows is "such a god awfull pain in the arse".

Trust me, I would feel your pain if I was subjected to multiple 2 hour presentations. This is not buying a timeshare though, this is your home and you make the rules. It is well within the realm of possibilities for a customer to say that you have exactly 1 hour of their time to do your business. There is no reason that you can present and estimate and even measure windows in that time span without any problems. Of course that depends on the scope of the job but that goes without saying.

For a total of 4 windows, they should be in and out of there in well under an hour depending on your input.

The reason that the AC12 is thought of typically a lower end product is because it is being compared to windows that are far, far, far superior in energy efficiency, build quality, and long term functionality. If you are using whether or not the window will rot out in 10 years than yes, the AC12 will do fine.

If you want an efficient window that will look, function, and perform properly for the life of your home, keep looking.

Are your windows mulled (i.e. joined together) in the center or is there casing and a wood post in the middle?

[jd10013]

mulled together.

[Windows on Washington]

What is the exact configuration of the windows you were quoted.

i.e. Grids, Low-e/argon, etc.

[jd10013]

dual pane double-strength glass with soft coat low E and argon Gas between the panes. Flat grids

[jd10013]

I am always shocked when people say that buying windows is "such a god awfull pain in the arse".

Here's the problem for most people. We know nothing about windows, at least not the details. Most people want to put something good in their home, but they also don't want to get ripped off. And because most contractors are pushing something different, its virtually impossible to compare one guy to the next. On top of all that, they're salesman. so you know they're trying to squeeze every penny they can out of you, and probably not being completly honest with you. how do you know who's lieing and who's being honest/ how do you know who's being honest but is over charging you 30%? How do you know what kind of installation you'll get, or even if they've been installed correctly? All that leaves you with no choice but hundreds of hours reasearching windows, listening to sales pitches, and pulling your hair out of your head. And in the end, It will still be hard to tell if the thousands of $$$ you parted with for windows was a good deal, let alone the best one you could have got.

[Windows on Washington]

I appreciate your situation. Trust me, I do. It is the same type of objections that the good contractors struggle to overcome everyday of our working lives.

That being said, you have such a leg up on the competition with the internet and discussion boards such as this one. The information disseminated through discussion forums are invaluable.

I assure you that you, just from browsing around here briefly, know more that most.

[jd10013]

would it be possible to fix wooden windows? or do they have to be replaced?

[Scott1q1]

While your windows do just sit there, they need alot of important parts to be able to function properly and still keep the elements out.

One of the things an installer does is compare the window's sight lines as they install them. The sashes should be parallel at the meeting rail and also parallel with the main frame where they meet at the top and bottom of the window.

This is completely impossible to do with the ac12..both the sash and main frames have odd bows and dips in them, also each sash will have about 3/4 inch of play to rock up and down.

Luckily the window has a deep top pocket so no matter how poorly it is assembled you can usually still get it to lock

Another thing I noticed..Most vinyl windows have the vertical fuzzy weatherstrip seal between the sash and main frame that you can see from inside when the window is closed, but the main seal is actually on the outside of the sash against a special lip of the main frame, the pressure between the sash and frame is controlled by the tilt-locks.

This is a major difference between vinyl and most other replacement windows, and is a nice feature because even if the installer doesn't get the window shimmed right it will remain airtight.

Yup..Unfortunately the main frame of the ac12 isn't made this way, it has just the seals that will work only if the window is shimmed properly.

Just a couple of things I noticed in passing, lets not even talk about the balance system or slightly odd colored vinyl.

I understand your point, especially since so many of the discussions here are just splitting hairs between good products, but there really are some huge differences in windows (and installs too) in going from the worst to the best.

I also agree with you on the selection process, if there was a simple way to weed through the crap I don't understand, I would probably have much better relationships with my insurance brokers, lawyer, heating and air guy, etc LOL.

[jd10013]

thats why I may now look into repairing, rather than replacing my windows. How much work (if its possible at all) would it be to replace a sill and some trim on a wooden window, and 1 sash?

[Guy]

JD10013,

Depending on the age of your existing windows, repairing them may not be worth the money you'll get out of new windows. Windows have made such a significant advancement over the last decade. Anything over ten years old doesn't hold a candle to the worst window on the market today. You would be better off spending your money on the AC window than trying to fix your old one. The longevity of the AC window isn't as good as the Simonton product, but it's better than your old wood windows.

The Simonton window HD offers is really a good window. It's the same window that is sold by Sears with different hardware. The only downfall with HD in most areas is their installation services. HD has destroyed their relationships with the quality installers in most areas. The only installers they can get are bottom of the barrel. I've heard through the grape vine that they've fired off their subcontractors and gone out and hired installers as employees. They may wrangle some upper end installers over time with todays economy. I just haven't heard how things are going yet.

You may want to give Lowes a try if they are in your area. I happen to install for Lowes because they give me a lot of work and pay me well. Nothing like HD. They have been great to work with here in our area and roll out a ton of work for us. Lowes has the Pella vinyl windows in comparison to HD's AC vinyl products. The Pella window is much better than the AC window from what I've seen. We've been installing them here for three plus years and haven't had many issues with them. We seem to have more issues with the wood clad units than the vinyl. You may want to give them a shot at it.

I feel bad for anyone trying to purchase windows today. Just like Windows on Washington stated, they should be in and out in an hour or less for that small of a job. The hard sell by a lot of these companies makes it tougher for us that still do it with honor and integrity. It seems like every time I talk with people who have sat through the half day class on hard window sales, they're very leery. I always have to re-invent the wheel to gain their respect. Good Luck!!!

[jd10013]

but is $2600 a fair price for 4 double hung (2 sets of 2 mulled together) simonton 6500 series windows about 72x36?

and how in the world could the do it in less than an hour? removing all the trim inside and outside. Removing the old windows, installling the new windows, putting the trim back on? seems like a lot of work to do in <1 hour.

And quick answers would be greatly appreciated. I got a reprieve over the weekend, but now its monday and numerous window people will be bearing down on me

[Scott1q1]

Seems like any money spent on fixing your current windows would be basically wasted, you could maybe get through a couple more years with it but eventually you will need to do something.

Its possible to replace the sashes with a thermalpane sashpack and then replace the sill, nose, stops, and brickmolds with vinyl parts, but it would cost more than a new window and probably not be as nice.

Thats not a bad price from HD, you could pay more or less buying the same window from someone else and it is a nice window. It will take them a couple hours or more to do it, depending on how many workers there are.

No offense Guy I always enjoy reading your posts but in my area HD has a much better rep than Lowes(not that thats saying alot )

Who knows how they do in OP's area, basically each major city has its own branch and they work largely independantly of one another.

A good company subbing for them can make a huge difference in public opinion even in a large market I bet.

The Simonton is a good bit nicer window than the Pella also Imo.