Windowwizards & OKNA foam fill issues

[Bill]

Take a look at the link below regarding legal problems related to foam filled windows manufactured by OKNA

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/inv ... es_Preview

[thermex]

i don't know how the hell they could mess something like that up;its injected and then expands. does the foam degrade? although the foam does'nt really do much anyway.

[Briant73]

I have read messages saying foam filling a window doesn't really add a lot to their energy values but any company that sells a product promising/promoting this as a feature, customers should expect it.

I just browsed the Okna website and found no mention of foam filling but I thought they offered that when I looked a couple months ago. Anyone know if foam filling is a regular feature or option on OKNA windows usually and if so ever notice how well it was filled?

On a side note seemed to me the windows shown in the news piece appeared to show lots of glass and not much vinyl on the sashes which is nice.

[Windows on Washington]

You are correct that foam filling does not typically translate into large efficiency improvements in most windows. If a window has a singular chamber between an outside surface and an inside surface, foam will certainly interrupt the thermal bridge that would be present in that type of scenario.

That point is mostly moot because vinyl windows are based on a chambered profile design primarily for strength and secondarily for insulation.

It appears that the "misleading" information in this case was a lack of accuracy between portrayed foam filling and actual foam filling. Apparently Okna released pictures in error that were not representative of their actual foam filling in their windows. This is what I gather from reading the responses from both Window Wizards, their attorney, and Okna. If that is the case, it would seem to be a benign enough infraction. If there is no foam where foam is spec'ed, that is a different issue altogether and certainly deserves looking into.

I am going to do some cutting tomorrow and see what I find. I will post up pictures.

[thermex]

this is why Schuco never filled their frames with foam.

[buddy110]

It appears that the "misleading" information in this case was a lack of accuracy between portrayed foam filling and actual foam filling. Apparently Okna released pictures in error that were not representative of their actual foam filling in their windows. This is what I gather from reading the responses from both Window Wizards, their attorney, and Okna. If that is the case, it would seem to be a benign enough infraction. If there is no foam where foam is spec'ed, that is a different issue altogether and certainly deserves looking into.
.

I disagree with this, I don't believe for a second this was a mistake. They provided pictures and cutaways showing one thing and then sold them another. I've dealt in foam filled windows for years. I do agree there is little insulating value, it's mostly a marketing ploy. However, when you fill a cavity it's next to impossible to fill only the ends and get ZERO in the center. There will always be foam present in the center and in most cases there is a 95% fill throughout. They advertised a frame with every cavity filled and sold them frames with either little or no foam in them at all and in some cases only one cavity filled. I'd bet my left nut this was done with the knowledge of WW and Okna.

We cut open a few of our foam filled windows from time top time in an on going effort to keep our suppliers honest. There is always foam where it was supposed to be.

Great lakes (use to) insert a pre expanded open cell foan that was contoured to the extrusion. There was always 100% fill. Nice feature.

[Briant73]

You are correct that foam filling does not typically translate into large efficiency improvements in most windows. If a window has a singular chamber between an outside surface and an inside surface, foam will certainly interrupt the thermal bridge that would be present in that type of scenario.

That point is mostly moot because vinyl windows are based on a chambered profile design primarily for strength and secondarily for insulation.

It appears that the "misleading" information in this case was a lack of accuracy between portrayed foam filling and actual foam filling. Apparently Okna released pictures in error that were not representative of their actual foam filling in their windows. This is what I gather from reading the responses from both Window Wizards, their attorney, and Okna. If that is the case, it would seem to be a benign enough infraction. If there is no foam where foam is spec'ed, that is a different issue altogether and certainly deserves looking into.

I am going to do some cutting tomorrow and see what I find. I will post up pictures.

Very interested in those pics to see if Okna fills up their windows all the way with foam or not. As to the "misleading" information I could accept that if only pictures were used but they showed where the sales people use window cutaways that show foam filled just like the picture.

[Skydawggy]

It appears to me that Okna tried to reduce the amount of foam in their windows and they got caught. Window Wizards probably knew about it but the window showed much better with foam in all the chambers so they continued to use the old extrusion figuring the customers would never know the difference and they got caught too. This is a black mark on Okna and Window Wizards and one that is going to cost them a lot of money to fix.

[windowman pa]

I would bet a few other manufactures are sweating right now!

[thermex]

from what i have heard,this was only an issue with windows purchased through "window wizrds" and not any Okna dealers.. perhaps window wizards were cutting costs or not being honest. we shall see but this is another negative that the industry does not need.

[buddy110]

from what i have heard,this was only an issue with windows purchased through "window wizrds" and not any Okna dealers.. perhaps window wizards were cutting costs or not being honest. we shall see but this is another negative that the industry does not need.

Perhaps, but that does't explain their literature. If Okna was in fact underfilling for any reason, (just filling the ends) they're guilty of comspiracy to decieve the public.

[nyuaznguy]

wow, i hope my windows have full foam, although from the other experts on the board seems like it is a minor issue???

When they were installing, I could see some of the foam on the outer edges of the window fram.

[thermex]

on a high quality extrusion, foam does'nt do much. i know 2 dealers who cut open a few windows today and both did indeed contain fully filled foam. the windows were purchased BEFORE ths tory broke so i suspect it was a one time blip and exclusive to "window wizrds". still not good for the industry though.

[Briant73]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I'd wonder if WindowWizards has updated their brochures and samples to reflect the reality yet?

Both companies (OKNA and WindowWizards) are saying the same thing so far, but who knows there might be potential for a Ford-Firestone scenario if lawsuits from customers start coming in.

To the people in the industry - what do you feel should be the solution customers should receive? Cash Back, Some kind of fix? Free window washings for the next 5 years? Just curious.

[Skydawggy]

wow, i hope my windows have full foam, although from the other experts on the board seems like it is a minor issue???

When they were installing, I could see some of the foam on the outer edges of the window fram.

This is most definitely NOT a minor issue. This is a black-eye for Okna, Window Wizards and the industry in general as well as a pretty clear case of consumer fraud. Many of us advocate for higher standards in manufacturing and greater honesty and openness with consumers. Personally, I'd like to see an investigation by the AG and if Okna and/or Window Wizards are complicit in defrauding consumers, I'd like to see them either replace every window involved or offer the customer a partial refund. This isn't some "glitch" at the factory. This was likely done with full knowledge by management at Okna and possibly at Window Wizards. Unfortunately, we will probably see some of the same industry apologists stepping up to defend Okna as they did with Schuco because they have a financial interest in sweeping this under the rug as soon as possible.