OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

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dsallen
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OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#1 Post by dsallen »

I'm "rounding the bend" on making a decision on 10 double-hung duo-pane vinyl windows, thanks to all of the pros on this forum. I've reduced the number in the final cut to three manufacturers: OKNA, Soft-Lite, and Sunrise. The window models considered among these manufacturers are:

OKNA - 500, 800, and StarMark

Soft-Lite - Elements

Sunrise - Sunrise

Among these three manufacturers, how does each of their manufacturing QC compare? And, is their QC consistent? I've read that Sunrise generally has excellent QC at their factory. What are the statistics on OKNA and Soft-Lite? Once I have this input, as well as listening to the valued opinion of the installer who most likely will get my business, I will make the purchase decision. I know manufacturing QC is only one parameter of a quality window, e.g. design, materials, installation, etc., but it's an important factor in my decision.

I must admit, I'm a bit concerned, and gun shy, of OKNA, given the July 2009 WindowiZards expose. Consumers must rely on companies' marketing and promotional materials, and if the product doesn't equal or correlate with what's advertised, it greatly impacts consumer confidence and future sales. Consumers don't have the option of drilling into sashes, or hacking them apart with a hack saw prior to purchase to determine if the companies' brochures are really truthful. The brochures, and the dealer's information, are all we have to base a multi-thousand dollar investment upon.

Thanks in advance for any input on this.

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HomeSealed
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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#2 Post by HomeSealed »

Personally, I'd say Softlite or Okna, although my experience installing their product is not all that extensive. I have not installed Okna's product at all. Sunrise, I can certainly vouch for, as I used to personally install 50-80 Restorations units per week. I have to say that while I think it is a fine product, I was not impressed with the QC. There were a lot of bowed sashes, misaligned locks, and there was always silicone smeared all over the glass.... This was some years ago so they have possibly rectified these issues recently, but I can only speak from my own experience.

*2014 update: This post was recently brought to my attention by a consumer, so I feel compelled to provide an update. Since the original post, I have gained extensive experience with all three manufacturers. I can say that all three range from good to excellent. In terms of product quality and performance I would rank them:

Okna 800
Starmark (its about as good as the 800, but hard to justify the extra $)
SL Elements
Sunrise Restorations
* with the qualifier that all of these products are in the elite level of performance on the market.

When it comes to QC and CS of the manufacturer, I'd say Okna, followed by Sunrise, then Softlite.
This post was made prior to Softlite's purchase of Gorell's assets, which some call into question regarding their lack of warranty support. IMHO, Okna went out of their way (and out of their pockets) to help consumers who had complaints that were primarily the fault of the specific dealer(WW) mixed with the inherent faults of blindly filling extrusions with spray foam. Softlite, otoh, went out and purchased the good name and client base of Gorell, but is offering very limited to zero warranty coverage on that product. Certainly they are within their rights to do so, but it does not necessarily sit well with some dealers and consumers that are left with no coverage.
In the past four years, I've never dealt with a company with the level of quality control as Okna, and I've found them to be nothing but a "stand up" company all around.
Ultimately every manufacturer has some skeletons in their closet, be it legitimate or some "expose" cooked up by a competitor or disgruntled employee. At the end of the day, all three are pretty darned good, particularly since manufacturers having been closing their doors like its going out of style in recent years. I do believe that these three are here for the long haul.
Last edited by HomeSealed on Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#3 Post by Windows on Washington »

Splitting hairs between those 3 really. All very top notch manufacturers. The foam issue was Window Wizards specific and Okna uses a rigid foam instead of an injected foam so that the potential for partial fill rates is nil.

We have pretty extensive experience with 2 of the 3 in that list and they are both head and shoulders above the rest of the pack.

dsallen
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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#4 Post by dsallen »

Thanks to those that replied. I know some may not wish to answer such a question, especially if they are authorized dealers for these manufacturers, as it may jeopardize their relationship.

One thing that is confusing about Sunrise is their website. On the Sunrise website, they only discuss the "Sunrise" window, and their "Vanguard" and "Restorations" models have separate websites. This can be a bit confusing for the consumer, whereas Soft-Lite includes all of their models on their website.

One question on Sunrise: Is it true that only the Vanguard and Restorations have the reinforced sash keeper rail? I understand that they use a fiberglass reinforcement. If this is true, this is definitely a concern on the Sunrise model.

Also, with a sliding patio door with the built-in mini-blinds option... do they not come with the Argon fill between the duo-panes, and is the low-e film compromised over time due to the wear and tear of the mini-blinds?

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Delaware Mike
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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#5 Post by Delaware Mike »

Those are really good questions. You are asking all the right stuff. Prior to us having the Soft-Lite line, we exclusively carried just the standard Sunrise series. This was back in 2004-2005. On larger regular Sunrise series double-hungs we would sometimes see the bowing of a sash due to the fact that the silicone had not set up properly and then the sash was handled by someone on the assembly line that grabbed it too rough, thus allowing the IG and the sash frame to not marry correctly. It's an easy field fix, but one that I never liked doing, nor should we have to. They received a lot of complaints and had the engineers like into a more agressive glazing sealant. When I was out to the plant in 2006 they walked me through the process of what was happening and how they resolved it. I've only seen a few bowed sashes since and I know that it was a factory worker's fault, perhaps they were new?

When we added the Soft-Lite line, Sunrise decided to offer us the Vanguard series with the meeting rail reinforcement at no addtionial cost for us. Since we sell about an equal amount of both, I feel both manufacturers have their pros and cons. This is with every product on the planet. If you're are looking a really large double-hungs, I would stick with Soft-Lite Imperial LS or Elements. Or, simply the OKNA products. The narrow line sashes even with fiberglass reinforcement will still not be able to stay 100% level in the center, it's impossible. None of my homeowners have ever complained, but I can tell since precision allignement and leveling is part of my Millwright career. I just about always go with the Imperial LS on wide double hungs. On casements, awnings and pictures, both are about equal in my opinion. I do like the Q-Lon weatherstripping that Soft-Lite utilizes a little better than what Sunrise seals their casements and awnings with. But, I've never had Sunrise window leak air in the form of a homeowner complaint.

As for the patio slider, Sunrise utilizes a hard coat of the low-e coating. It shouldn't scratch if the blinds were to hit the glass in shipping and during installation. Standard modern low-e coatings are made with softer metals such a silver, which is why they are more energy efficient than the older hard coats. Now some coffee, sorry about the typos! :lol:

dsallen
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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#6 Post by dsallen »

Thanks Mike. Following up on the patio slider... thanks for the info on the low-e coating. Do they use Argon in patio doors with mini-blinds, or do they omit the Argon? I've heard differing stories on this.

Re. the wide double-hung windows and Sunrise - thanks. We have two 48" wide casements on the 2nd story that we've been told can be replaced with double-hung windows. My wife would like to get rid of the casements. It sounds like Sunrise may not be the best choice for such a wide double-hung. Soft-Lite Elements with its Kevlar reinforcement, or the OKNA appear to be the better choices.

Lastly, should I be concerned with OKNA's build quality, especially with regard to the WindowiZards expose last year? Although I know OKNA built the window for them as a private label, their window did not correlate with the promotional brochures supplied to the consumers for the window. It makes one wonder if their current brochures on the 500, 800, and StarMark provide correct information. With the money I'm about to spend, I'm very leery of any company that may mislead consumers - intentionally or non-intentionally. Because of this, I'm leaning more to the Soft-Lite Elements. It doesn't hurt that Soft-Lite's been in business since 1934 either!

jayal11

Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#7 Post by jayal11 »

i have been selling okna for years, and for the money there is absolutely nothing better. we have been in business for 92 years and would never risk what we have built for any manufacturer unless we were sure they are solid. The issue with WindowWizards was just that - an issue with WindowWizards. With an amazing U factor and air infiltration rate, you cant go wrong with okna, and being that we sell every brand, you can take that to the bank!

i know their product lines inside and out, as well as sunrise, so if you have any questions feel free!

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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#8 Post by TheWindowNerd »

I would look at Soft-lite Imperial LS, major difference between Elemants and LS is screen and glass break warranty.

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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#9 Post by Skydawggy »

jayal11 wrote:i have been selling okna for years, and for the money there is absolutely nothing better. we have been in business for 92 years and would never risk what we have built for any manufacturer unless we were sure they are solid. The issue with WindowWizards was just that - an issue with Window Wizards
Who made the window? Certainly not Window Wizards.

I'm not trying to drag this black eye for Okna back up b/c I think they have addressed the issue and solved it. OTOH let's not re-write history. That would be unfair too.

dsallen
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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#10 Post by dsallen »

Skydawggy wrote:
jayal11 wrote:i have been selling okna for years, and for the money there is absolutely nothing better. we have been in business for 92 years and would never risk what we have built for any manufacturer unless we were sure they are solid. The issue with WindowWizards was just that - an issue with Window Wizards
Who made the window? Certainly not Window Wizards.

I'm not trying to drag this black eye for Okna back up b/c I think they have addressed the issue and solved it. OTOH let's not re-write history. That would be unfair too.
Skydawggy - This is my concern. I like the looks and the performance specs of the OKNA line, but for one who is about to spend thousands of dollars, I simply can't make a mistake. You state "I think they have addressed the issue and solved it." This does give me a bit of solace, but I need to spend some more time researching this before signing the contract for a specific window. Presently, the Soft-Lite Elements is my #1 choice, but this is subject to change if I can get more data on OKNA. Sunrise was in the running too, but the apparent lack of reinforcement for the keeper rail with the standard Sunrise model and some evidence of bowed sashes and inconsistent QC on their double hung windows, appears to have dropped it from the list of choices.

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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#11 Post by Delaware Mike »

Yup, no argon fill with the blinds between the glass when you choose this option with Sunrise. The windows have a really small stainless steel breather tube to let moisture escape, thus one could not keep the argon in there anyway. I think that Sunrise builds the best vinyl patio slider in the industry from what I've seen. Even when we do a house of Imperials LS windows that will require a patio slider, I will suggest the Sunrise door.

If the casements that you are replacing are 48" wide, I'm thinking that are now twin or triple units. Sounds like you would be putting in twin mulled double hungs units possibly? This wouldn't be a problem with Sunrise, however since you are going to be watching for this issue under a microscope, I would stick with Soft-Lite or OKNA. By the way, Sunrise and Gorell seem to have the most positive feedback in the form of strong customer and dealer support from what I've seen.

dsallen
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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#12 Post by dsallen »

Delaware Mike wrote:If the casements that you are replacing are 48" wide, I'm thinking that are now twin or triple units. Sounds like you would be putting in twin mulled double hungs units possibly? This wouldn't be a problem with Sunrise, however since you are going to be watching for this issue under a microscope, I would stick with Soft-Lite or OKNA. By the way, Sunrise and Gorell seem to have the most positive feedback in the form of strong customer and dealer support from what I've seen.
Mike - The current 48" wide casements have two crank-out windows. No, the installers have quoted a single double-hung for this opening. Although they say a single 48" double-hung will be fine, I'm concerned about the long-term mechanical rigidity, especially with Sunrise with the non-reinforced keeper rail. The last thing I need is some sag in the sash! However, they know MUCH more than I do on this subject.

I'm also concerned about the appearance of a wide double-hung from the exterior. A 48" double hung is quite wide, and we are going from vertical wood siding to double-4" vinyl clapboard-style siding, along with the new windows. On this split-level home the clapboard siding will tend to "pull down" the height visibly of the 2nd story (vs. the vertical-grooved wood siding). With a wide double-hung I'm just concerned how the window will look. My wife and I are actually reconsidering a casement window for this application, due to the exterior appearance issue. We only have two casements on the front of the 2nd story; all other windows on the 2nd story, as well as the 1st story are double-hungs.

I apologize for looking at this issue under a microscope, but my engineering background tends to make me scrutinize all specifications and data prior to a purchase of this magnitude. Thanks for your input, especially the comments on Sunrise and Gorell. I have not received a quote using the Gorell window. The quotes received include: Alside - actually, a private label called Cornerstone, OKNA 500, 800, and StarMark, Soft-Lite Elements, and Sunrise.

Again, thanks for your input, as well as all others. It is truly appreciated.

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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#13 Post by Delaware Mike »

Valid concerns. Stick with the OKNA 800 or Starmark, Elements or LS. Even with the fiberglass stiffner on the Sunrise Vanguard or Restorations, that is too wide for a narrow line sash extrusion, not to mention their sill isn't on par with the other two manufacturers. Your getting close, good research.

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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#14 Post by Skydawggy »

dsallen wrote:
Skydawggy - This is my concern. I like the looks and the performance specs of the OKNA line, but for one who is about to spend thousands of dollars, I simply can't make a mistake. You state "I think they have addressed the issue and solved it." This does give me a bit of solace, but I need to spend some more time researching this before signing the contract for a specific window. Presently, the Soft-Lite Elements is my #1 choice, but this is subject to change if I can get more data on OKNA. Sunrise was in the running too, but the apparent lack of reinforcement for the keeper rail with the standard Sunrise model and some evidence of bowed sashes and inconsistent QC on their double hung windows, appears to have dropped it from the list of choices.
OTOH it seems to me you are waaaay over thinking this. All manufacturers have QC issues from time to time and all of them have made poor decisions that in retrospect, I'm sure they wish they had done things differently. Haven't we all? The real difference is not whether a manufacturer has QC issues from time to time but how they handle them. If you go back and read the Window Wizards/Okna threads you will see I was one of the only Pros on here who was very vocal in my condemnation of Okna and how they handled this at that time. I wasn't going to let any of the Okna dealers spin their way out of this by blaming WW.

With that said, I would have no problem recommending Okna or Softlite. They have worked through their issues and come out the other side as better companies than they were before.

dsallen
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Re: OKNA vs. Soft-Lite vs. Sunrise - Best Manufacturing QC

#15 Post by dsallen »

Yes, perhaps I am over thinking this. OTOH, for a consumer looking at replacement windows for the first time, this market can be extremely confusing. For example, some manufacturers websites are excellent, others almost provide no information at all. Personally, I like to research products, and get personal opinions from consumers and pros alike, before I purchase anything. And in this case where I will most likely be spending from $12K to $15K, I must choose the best product for my application, and this does require due diligence.

Thanks for your input.

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