Re: install review

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rl-27
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Re: install review

#1 Post by rl-27 »

So, I have a contract for installing private label Okna windows from a local dealer, who okna also referred me to. Details as follows: Triple patio door... U factor .19, vis. Transfer. 0.33, solar heat gain .21, condensation resistance 70

Double pane double hung u factor .25, vis. Trans. .51 , solar heat gain .30, condensation resistance .62

The install team member came today for detailed measurements and a review of the install. Our house has new constructions nail fin windows that have the j-channel attached. The installer explained their process of cutting the nail fin and j-channel off the current window and installing the new ones inside this. The problem, in my mind, is that our original windows were thrown in the hole without any house wrap or tape on the fin. Built in 2003.

I thought we were getting full tear out and replacement, but they seem to be balking at that now. Not sure where this goes from here for me.

Comments and, hopefully, reassurance, please.

TheWindowNerd
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Re: install review

#2 Post by TheWindowNerd »

We often do the type of install that they describe to you and have not had a problem. Some require more attention to details than others. Some need a metal drip installed above.
I hear you about wanting a fin and tape. To do that will be more money as the siding has to be cut back, the new window installed with a fin- then taped- then either a wide cap (min.3.5") or composite 5/4 x 4.

By the way sometimes the language is confusing as it applies differently to wood windows where a pocket insert can be done or a full frame. In your case it is a full tear out, but the question would have been about the install method and fin install.

theWindowNerd...

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HomeSealed
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Re: install review

#3 Post by HomeSealed »

+1.
Does it offer the most thorough level of protection in comparison to other methods? No. That said, it is a legitimate installation option that is approved by manufacturers and should be problem free. I prefer the siding cut back personally, but as Anthony said, you would pay a premium for that. Probably in the range of $150-$200 ea.
The important thing here is that you are getting what you were promised. I'd look back at the contract for details.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: install review

#4 Post by Windows on Washington »

+1

You are technically getting a full tear out, just not a new construction application.

This is done quite often and has been reproduced successfully for years. You can get the nailing flange and flashing done if you request it but there certainly is an added expense to both consumables and labor in that case.

randy
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Re: install review

#5 Post by randy »

The important thing here is that you are getting what you were promised. I'd look back at the contract for details.
This is the key to me: What were you sold? If you were charged for the new construction (fin) installation, that's what you should be getting. If not, I wouldn't worry as it's (no fin) the most common method of replacement.

masterext
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Re: install review

#6 Post by masterext »

Looks to me that the installer is doing the right thing. Does the contract specifically say new construction window with ALL NEW TRIM and nail flange?
A replacement is NOT new construction and would not include taping an old flange unless that was specifically stated in the contract.
A replacement does still render an airtight install.
I dont see anything wrong here unless it was detailed in writing which doesnt seem to be the case here?

rl-27
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Re: install review

#7 Post by rl-27 »

Thank you for the comments. To assist, I have provided additional details of my foray into the window replacement world below:

I spoke with the company again this morning and they confirmed their install meets the manufactuers specs, etc. They reitereated they are a replacement company, not a new install company. I get all that and agree, however, I was very clear to them about my concerns.

To provide pricing clarity, I am at $865 total per opening for the double hungs, $2968 for the slider. Specs in prior post. (Which I felt was slightly high but not unresonable, and which I thought included full tearout and replacement)

The same dealer intially quoted me $1304/opening, which I balked at, but I loved the Okna product and contacted Okna direcltly. Okna sent me back to the same dealer. Then they offered "manager pricing". For my own sanity, I found this website and also priced a Soft-Lite LS dealer (wholesale) at $405/window no install with solar low e, and superspacer, prairie grids. And, I had an installer quote me $500/opening to install full tearout, so $905/opening, which I thought was high. This was also prior to the reworked $865 quote. I was targeting $675 overall, based on reviews here for a high-end window with typical install and willing to pay more for the full tearout, as I understand this is more involved.

Anyway, they want to come back out and look again, and they potentially offered to sell me just the windows/slider as well, so then I would be back to needing an installer!!!

South Central PA

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Delaware Mike
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Re: install review

#8 Post by Delaware Mike »

Can I assume that the exterior of your house is veneered with vinyl siding?

rl-27
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Re: install review

#9 Post by rl-27 »

Correct, vinyl siding into the attached j-channel.

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Delaware Mike
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Re: install review

#10 Post by Delaware Mike »

My gig (keep in mind that I'm a little crazy about my installs) would be to drop the siding around the area to the windows to completely remove the nailing flanged window down to a rough opening. Since the offset of the new windows interior jamb depth is going to almost certainly be greater than your existing windows, the interior sheetrock or wood jamb extensions are going to need to be cut back about 5/16" give or take. I do this in place with a utility knife with sheetrock or a small skill saw and mulitmaster type tool for wood. This includes the stool cap. It's a pain and takes time.

The reason why go through all of this trouble and time is I know how these new construction homes are built. I don't want to put in a rock solid insert/replacement window type of installation and still get blamed for water penetration anywhere near the window cavity. The window installer always gets blamed and has to prove his innocence. I'd rather do it to were even if some weekend warrior went bonkers with a power washer the window framing won't leak.

Your reg flag is the absence of the proper WRB, sill flashing, and taping. I wouldn't be surprised to find rotted OSB sheathing to the sill areas of the window. We cut this stuff out and do it right. I prefer the DuPont flashing systems, however there are all sorts of great systems out there. It's not a cheap install by any means. Myself and my main helper can typically install about 8-16 windows in a day and then another day for capping or trim. With this method we can get about 2 windows installed a day complete. This includes new shoe molding to the interior returns to cover the cut back area . The window is set into a wet bed of low-expansion spray foam too in addition to sealant to the back of flange (not bottom). If repair work is needed that typically can add a day.

I'll try too add some before and after pics to my Yahoo Photo Bucket which I've not touched in years and link them up for you to check out. I did a small Soft-Lite Imperial LS project like this a little of a year ago.

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HomeSealed
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Re: install review

#11 Post by HomeSealed »

My thoughts exactly Mike, although I prefer to cut back the siding and add new trim as opposed to R&R... Everything else is spot on for what I prefer.
Again, that is not to say that the other methods are not acceptable, but I feel much better going with what some might consider "overkill".

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Delaware Mike
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Re: install review

#12 Post by Delaware Mike »

The siding cut back even though it can slightly alter the look of the outside of the windows from the existing appearance is what I typically would like to do. I do this with aluminum window tear outs often. It's my dumb luck that my typical homeowner will have front windows that have shutter jambes together that will not allow for installation of an exterior capped trim board as there is not enough width between the sets of shutters, thus the siding must either be dropped or a smaller window retrofitted into the opening.

rl-27
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Re: install review

#13 Post by rl-27 »

I'm going to pull some siding today and look to see what, if any, damage may exist. My front shutter do bump right against the attached j-channel, so they either need to go or be moved which may look silly. Toured the neighborhood and noted the wide trim with no shutter look and I think I'd be ok with it. I'll try to put some pics up as well after I pull the siding. Decent weather at last!

rl-27
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Re: install review

#14 Post by rl-27 »

Verified no tape, house wrap or anything else. Pics file sizes are too big to post, apparently.

rl-27
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Re: install review

#15 Post by rl-27 »

Spoke with the sales manager bill v from Okna, who spoke very highly of you guys. I guess I will find out more from the dealer tomorrow, after they talk to each other. Bill confirmed the install method and confirmed their warranty of the product. He also advised the 800 deluxe or higher is not made with an attached nail flange due to the equipment, but it can be field installed. He also feels the existing nail flange will be sealed in well enough during the install that it should not be a problem. He did advise this dealer has minimal claims from their installs. That was a positive, but does not resolve my understanding of the install against what the install leader told me on measurement day following the 3-day cancel against what the agreed price point is. I do not feel comfortable after looking underneath and knowing how the original windows were installed.

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