Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

For all those Replacement Window decisions - just read, review or post a question. You will be helped!
Message
Author
User avatar
HomeSealed
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Location: Milwaukee, Madison, Northern IL
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#16 Post by HomeSealed »

Great explanation by WOW above...
It's not that the vinyl itself will have any inherent difference in expansion rate (although my understanding is that there is some minor effect based on composition as mentioned by masterext), but that the thickness of the vinyl will have an effect on the temperature fluctuation of the material (thinner material will cool or heat at a faster rate) and therefore the expansion rate is higher.

Also, @ Ramone, keep in mind that while yes, vinyl does have a higher rate of expansion than something like fiberglass, that really is irrelevant.
1) The amount of expansion in a residential window application is literally negligible
2) The movement that is there is most certainly something that is taken into consideration in the design and engineering process of the window. Just like any other product, the inherent qualities are engineered into the design to maximize it's strengths and mitigate its weaknesses.
This whole issue is largely baseless propaganda from manufacturers that push fiberglass and/or composite products... They all have pros and cons at the end of the day.

toddinmn
Posts: 632
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#17 Post by toddinmn »

My questions were meant for anyone who could answer them based upon fact and not heresay.
Home Depot sells Silverline and Simonton windows and maybe more. These windows use different PVC formulations, or least they look different. Each has different lines with different wall thicknesses. Many brands use a different wall thickness for sashes and vinyl frames, some have foam filled sashes, some just in the frame, some in the frame and sash but not all chambers. Does this mean all this vinyl is expanding different rates and fighting itself? If PVC is expanding at a different rate we should list it since this would be an excellent tool to separate the winners and losers, but my guess the difference in rate is very small, much smaller than PVC vs fiberglass.
When comparing foam backed siding to thinner existing siding there are a lot of varibles to consider. I think the 2 biggest things that would reduce noise would be the installation methods and the fact that there is buffer zone of foam that would quite it down and the foam probably makes less noise rubbing against what ever it is against. Can't see foam helping with expansion rate since it is installed on the cold side.

masterext
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#18 Post by masterext »

Todd
I am just stating what a few engineers from various vinyl extruders told me. they explicitly stated higher end vinyl formulations will limit expansion whereas a lower grade vinyl such as a silverline by andersen will be more problematic. They did mention wall thickness but seemed to imply the formulation had much more to do with it as well as the actual design of the extrusion.

User avatar
Windows on Washington
Posts: 4850
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#19 Post by Windows on Washington »

toddinmn wrote: When comparing foam backed siding to thinner existing siding there are a lot of varibles to consider. I think the 2 biggest things that would reduce noise would be the installation methods and the fact that there is buffer zone of foam that would quite it down and the foam probably makes less noise rubbing against what ever it is against. Can't see foam helping with expansion rate since it is installed on the cold side.
We are at the risk of running full thread derailment at this point.

The foam is on the cold side but having looked at IR images of homes that are clad in either insulated or uninsulated siding, you can clearly see reduction in energy migration to the cold side.

Reduction in heat flow = more stable temps/less movement.

User avatar
HomeSealed
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Location: Milwaukee, Madison, Northern IL
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#20 Post by HomeSealed »

Fact: Thinner material heats and cools faster.

Fact: The movement (expansion/contraction) of the material is directly tied to a change in temperature.

Fact: Nobody stated that this difference (thin vinyl vs thin vinyl) was anywhere near the difference between vinyl and fiberglass.

Not sure what else you are looking for Todd... You asked a question and were given a factual answer. In regards to thicker vinyl making a better product, I'd agree, it is something to talk about. The better products on the market do generally offer a higher mil thickness compared to low end stuff. There are umpteen small factors that make a difference in quality and performance, I just choose to focus on the testing which reflects the sum of those parts.
On expansion in general, personally, I don't think it's much of a factor from low to high grade windows just as it is not from fg to vinyl. There is certainly a difference in the stability and durability of the finished product that comes from that however (thicker material). Does that answer your question? If not, please clarify.

Bill
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:11 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#21 Post by Bill »

I have heard this low grade vinyl formulation vs high grade formulation often over the years and 34 years ago when I started in this biz the vinyl windows that were available to us were all thin framed poorly designed products by today’s standards. Unfortunately we installed thousands of them and some of the original purchasers still reside in their home so we service the windows when called.

Still to this day I have not seen any issues related to the vinyl formulation; at this point I would have expected to see cracking and crumbling but the windows still function with the help of replacing balancers and certain other plastic parts. I have seen plenty of bowed sash’s not allowing the locks to align but it’s all attributed to the extrusion being thin and in turn weak bowing off the glass from everyday use.

I suppose just like anything else there are ways to cheapen a PVC formulation but unless you have a manufacturer’s formula in front of you and you have the engineering background to decipher it I wouldn’t be pointing the finger at any particular manufacturer. The poor design and workmanship is obvious on the low end products but the formula of the vinyl is not.

To me vinyl as a window framing material has proven itself and the scare tactic stories told by some of the alternative material sales people are not true unless we are talking about the thin framed low end offerings. And again the reasons to stay away from the low end windows are related to performance, design and frame thickness not necessarily vinyl formulation.

User avatar
HomeSealed
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Location: Milwaukee, Madison, Northern IL
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#22 Post by HomeSealed »

Bill wrote:
..To me vinyl as a window framing material has proven itself and the scare tactic stories told by some of the alternative material sales people are not true unless we are talking about the thin framed low end offerings...
I think that we can all agree on that, and ultimately, I believe that it answers the OP's concern rather concisely.

toddinmn
Posts: 632
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#23 Post by toddinmn »

That is a good answer. I like the way you made your points as opinions and personal experience and not claims or facts that are not or can't be backed up with actual data.

User avatar
Windows on Washington
Posts: 4850
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#24 Post by Windows on Washington »

toddinmn wrote:That is a good answer. I like the way you made your points as opinions and personal experience and not claims or facts that are not or can't be backed up with actual data.
Image

Lets not continue this discuss any further for fear of everyone's hackles getting up.

Todd...are you going stir crazy over there with the cold? This is a brilliant return to your previous combative form.

Always good for a chuckle to be certain. :lol:

toddinmn
Posts: 632
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#25 Post by toddinmn »

Just don't have time to do research on this one, so I'm gonna let it go even though I disagree on some and agree on others. The truth is out there.
Always remember; statistics lie and liars use statistics.

User avatar
HomeSealed
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Location: Milwaukee, Madison, Northern IL
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#26 Post by HomeSealed »

toddinmn wrote:Just don't have time to do research on this one, so I'm gonna let it go even though I disagree on some and agree on others. The truth is out there.
Always remember; statistics lie and liars use statistics.
Sorry, but that statement requires some followup.
Yes, numbers and statistics can be manipulated ,whether by fudging numbers, and/or giving improper weight to one test area over another. That said, you know the type of greasy folks that are running around in this business Todd, so let me ask you two questions:

1) Would you suggest that there is a superior method for consumers to compare products with regard to performance and quality than verifiable data that is independently tested? If so, do tell.

2) Secondly, are you implying that there is no correlation between the "statistics", IE: performance ratings and the quality of build and engineering of a given product?

If you would answer yes to either of those, I would say that you are in the vast minority of pros that are well informed and ascribe themselves to at least a minimum level of personal and professional ethics.
Perhaps you just like the contrarian role, and certainly there are exceptions to every rule (in regard to using statistics), but your statement is highly inflammatory whether that is what you intended or not. You are correct that the truth is out there, but what other than test data and other relevant statistics will get you closer to that?

toddinmn
Posts: 632
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#27 Post by toddinmn »

I would like to say this board is/usually can be a better way to find a better window information since finding all the right data on a window can be rather difficult task. I the board would be even better if claims made can be backed or just state that is your opinion. When MasterX says a "home depot'' vinyl will expand more he does not refer to a specific brand. Is he referring to Simon ton, Jeld-Wen, Silver line? All of them? When questioned he says because some guy said. Still having problems with the insulated siding claims/analogy as well. The statistics are a good place to start but can be confusing, hard to get and sometimes windows with great stats aren't available or are vastly overpriced. I just don't think it helps when b statements are made without any real backing or stats/ data. When I respond to these comments it's because I was actually curious and wanted to know the truth/ facts , then I get let down to find out it's because "this guy said or I shot it with my therm can.

User avatar
Windows on Washington
Posts: 4850
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#28 Post by Windows on Washington »

toddinmn wrote:Still having problems with the insulated siding claims/analogy as well. The statistics are a good place to start but can be confusing, hard to get and sometimes windows with great stats aren't available or are vastly overpriced. I just don't think it helps when b statements are made without any real backing or stats/ data. When I respond to these comments it's because I was actually curious and wanted to know the truth/ facts , then I get let down to find out it's because "this guy said or I shot it with my therm can.
I am not sure the insulated siding aspect will every be tested as the installation standards will always be the same.

I also don't need a laboratory test to tell me what happens to product "X" if I can clearly observe the conditions and physical properties of the product via non laboratory conditions.

Insulated products, thicker extrusions, items with more mass will inherently be more resistant to temperature fluctuations.

Less temperature fluctuation...less movement.

I would agree with Masterext (although I don't have the lab coat and the data study to go with it) that there are probably formulations of siding that are more resistant to expansion based on their formulation.

Again...I think the foam and lineal thickness has as much to do with it than anything else.

I don't think we are really pushing conspiracy theories or conjecture here when we make empirical conclusions on observable conditions and properties.

User avatar
VRWAdmin
Site Admin
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:11 am
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#29 Post by VRWAdmin »

The contractors section on Replacement-windows.com might be a good place to reconvene and continue this discussion.

http://www.replacement-windows.com/wind ... um.php?f=9

If only there was a way to serve virtual beers in that area to ease things a bit!

Ed's

RamonetB
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:38 pm

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#30 Post by RamonetB »

I just wanted to write a quick reply thanking all of you for your help in clearing up what was once very muddy waters for me.

I'm moving ahead with looking at Vinyl options now and, in particular, from the recommended companies here. We'll see where things go! I'm excited to be looking at windows again. :D

Thanks!

Post Reply