Surface 2 vs Surface 3

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Kennedy
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:08 pm

Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#1 Post by Kennedy »

Hi, While shopping for Polaris windows the dealer gave me Surface 2 or Surface 3 glass options. Can someone tell me the pros and cons to each that may impact a house in Cleveland OH?

Oberon
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#2 Post by Oberon »

Placing a LowE coating on surface 2 lowers solar heat gain through the window while placing the coating on surface 3 results in an increase in solar heat gain.

Window U value performance doesn't change between surface 2 or surface 3 coating application.

Single silver layer coatings are designed for high solar gain and are intended for surface 3 application, while multiple silver layer (2, 3, or 4 layer) LowE coatings are designed as either moderate (2 layer) solar heat gain, or low (3 or 4 layer) solar heat gain applications.

Unless your home was designed specifically to take advantage of solar heat gain during the winter, then choose surface 2. Any coating applied to surface 3 will increase summer solar heat gain as well as winter.

Kennedy
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#3 Post by Kennedy »

Thanks Oberon.

What is didn't understand and perhaps I wasn't asking properly. On the Surface 2 options the low E glass was on the outside of the house and the interior on the triple pain. On the surface 3 the glass on the inside of the house had low E and as did the interior panel.

I cant find an image in the internet of the surface 3 (that's the terminology that wa son the sheet from Polaris). Here is an image of what polaris called surface 2.
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Oberon
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#4 Post by Oberon »

Hi Kennedy,

Polaris's illustration wasn't very clear, probably adding to any confusion.

Glass in windows is labeled from outside in. In a dual pane window the outer glass lite that you can touch, the part exposed to the air, is surface 1 and the opposite side of the same sheet of glass as surface 1 is surface 2.

The two sides of the inner glass lite are referred to as surface 3 and 4. Three being the side that's inside the air space separating the two lites, and 4 being the glass that you have to clean when the dog touches it with her nose.

LowE coatings go inside the airspace on either surface 2 or 3, with 2 being MUCH more common than 3.

If you have a triple pane then the surfaces would be labeled 1-6 with 1 and 6 the surfaces that you can touch. Coatings in a triple pane are usually applied to surfaces 2 and 5; that's the most common, but other configurations are also possible.

Make sense?
Last edited by Oberon on Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#5 Post by HomeSealed »

When the .27 u value was introduced for Energy Star in the Northern zone a few years back, Polaris switched their default application from surface 2 to surface 3. What I was told at that time was that despite the general rule that this change has a negligible impact on U value, for them it had enough to move a tick from .28 to .27 in their flagship Ultraweld. They have made some changes since so I'm not sure if that is still applicable, but that was the explanation provided to dealers at that time.

masterext
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#6 Post by masterext »

I was told the same thing Brandon. I was also told that using a triple silver can also tip the scale in some instances which is why some companies only offer triple siliver such as solarban 70.
I am pretty sure these numbers are rounded off.

Kennedy
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#7 Post by Kennedy »

Thanks everyone! I have attached the sheets that got me so confused.

Look at the energySMART Supreme 2 (on the Surface 2 cluster page) and the energySMART Supreme 3 on the Surface 3 cluster page. The difference of the low e glass on the interior vs exterior is what has me curious. I had not seen this option until I met with my installer. No mention of it anywhere in Polaris website.
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HomeSealed
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#8 Post by HomeSealed »

Oberon gave a great explanation of the application surfaces above, as well as the pros and cons. If I'm not mistaken, Cleveland is in the Northern Zone for Energy Star. Your choices are essentially to go with the Supreme 3 for Energy Star certification (.27 u value), or Supreme 2 (.28 u value) which is not Energy Star but may actually be slightly better for comfort and energy savings. Let us know if that answers your question.

I'd like to add that your dealer is doing you no favors by simply giving you this raw info IMO. I'm all for transparency, options, etc, but he probably would've made this much easier for all involved by consolidating those two pages into just a few choices that would best fit your needs... and reduce confusion.

Kennedy
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#9 Post by Kennedy »

Thanks HomeSealed,
I'm going with Supreme 3. The installer suggested the supreme 3 he just laid all the options at my request. I've come on here and tried to look around the internet research the info he's giving me.

I want to thank everyone for the help. I pulled the trigger on the ThermalWELDS for my house. They will be out next week to measure. Very excited.

toddinmn
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#10 Post by toddinmn »

Surface 2 (supreme 2) was and still is the default glass package. The u values are the same as the Supreme 3. Supreme 3 would give you energy star via solar heat gains but stainless steel spacer and foam filled options were what boosted u values on dual paned units and are options one may desire.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#11 Post by HomeSealed »

toddinmn wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:54 am Surface 2 (supreme 2) was and still is the default glass package. The u values are the same as the Supreme 3. Supreme 3 would give you energy star via solar heat gains but stainless steel spacer and foam filled options were what boosted u values on dual paned units and are options one may desire.
When this was first introduced the switch from surface 2 to surface 3 bumped the U value down to .27 in the UW, it was not Energy Star via the alternative SHGC route. I believe that had foam, I don't recall if it was the stainless spacer or not. I see that the TWP does have the same U value on both currently, I'm not finding current u values for the UW on the Polaris website to confirm whether anything has changed.

toddinmn
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Re: Surface 2 vs Surface 3

#12 Post by toddinmn »

I don’t remember that. I have even have data that would show a lower u value with surface 2 with same specs, but most are identical. Strangely enough the u value will sometimes drop with 3mm(0.26)glass vs 2.5mm glass (0.27). The solar heat gain on there supreme 3 is about 0.38 vs about 0.29 on there supreme 2. These are fairly close and I wouldn’t consider the supreme 3 to be high solar gain glass package, more of a medium as compared to other high solar gain glass packages.

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