Sunrise V Model vs Simonton 5500 vs Wincore 7700

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BobBeau
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Re: Sunrise V Model vs Simonton 5500 vs Wincore 7700

#16 Post by BobBeau »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:19 pm 5500 drafty and thin extrusions. Many years ago they were a primary offering for us. We became more concerned with AL, and gladly moved to so much better product.
Is this your opinion or do you have hard data to support this? First, please provide the "thin extrusion" data. I'm guessing you have the specs of each manufacturer's extrusion to provide this information. I'm not calling you a liar but I'd like to see it side by side to compare.

Second, "Air leakage". I love it when I'm in a home and the potential customer says, "the other guy told me his window has the best air leakage rating out there".

So apples to apples... Do you have the test information available to you by each manufacturer? The test is done by simulating a wind load of 25 mph or 1.57 psf over a period of time and is measured in cfm, correct? Different manufacturers use different size windows for testing. Unless the manufacturers are all using the same size windows, (which they are not) how do you determine who has a better air leakage rating. NFRC doesn't recognize anything below 0.1. So, while a manufacture may post their air leakage results on their website, I haven't seen one post the size of the window used for the test. Different size windows will leak more or less than others. Also, while I agree air infiltration is very important when considering new construction or replacement windows, how often do you have a constant 25 mph wind load against them? You said, "We became more concerned with AL". How are you comparing apples to apples when the window size used for the test is unknown?

I look forward to your response

BobBeau
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Re: Sunrise V Model vs Simonton 5500 vs Wincore 7700

#17 Post by BobBeau »

Ricknez wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:11 pm Simonton is also a very outdated design and very bulky looking. I will leave it at that.
I agree with you. They are definitely on the bulky side.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Sunrise V Model vs Simonton 5500 vs Wincore 7700

#18 Post by Windows on Washington »

BobBeau wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:08 am
TheWindowNerd wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:19 pm 5500 drafty and thin extrusions. Many years ago they were a primary offering for us. We became more concerned with AL, and gladly moved to so much better product.
Is this your opinion or do you have hard data to support this? First, please provide the "thin extrusion" data. I'm guessing you have the specs of each manufacturer's extrusion to provide this information. I'm not calling you a liar but I'd like to see it side by side to compare.

Second, "Air leakage". I love it when I'm in a home and the potential customer says, "the other guy told me his window has the best air leakage rating out there".

So apples to apples... Do you have the test information available to you by each manufacturer? The test is done by simulating a wind load of 25 mph or 1.57 psf over a period of time and is measured in cfm, correct? Different manufacturers use different size windows for testing. Unless the manufacturers are all using the same size windows, (which they are not) how do you determine who has a better air leakage rating. NFRC doesn't recognize anything below 0.1. So, while a manufacture may post their air leakage results on their website, I haven't seen one post the size of the window used for the test. Different size windows will leak more or less than others. Also, while I agree air infiltration is very important when considering new construction or replacement windows, how often do you have a constant 25 mph wind load against them? You said, "We became more concerned with AL". How are you comparing apples to apples when the window size used for the test is unknown?

I look forward to your response
Air leakage rates are indicated as CFM/FT. So the leakage is relative to the unit size. That said, you can test an exorbitantly large window to get a lower average Air Infiltration rating.

You can see that reflected here in Simonton's test data: https://www.simonton.com/wp-content/upl ... g-Data.pdf

The only DH unit they have that tests to a single digit is a DH that is 56 by 84. Hardly a normal sized window at 140UI.

Most air numbers you see tested are windows that are on the larger side of the normal range (i.e. 95-105UI). In that case, the two Simonton DH units tested on their list have an Air Infiltration rating of 0.21 and 0.19 respectively (average of 0.20).

Still in the "Qualified" range, but not what most would refer to as "tight".

BobBeau
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Re: Sunrise V Model vs Simonton 5500 vs Wincore 7700

#19 Post by BobBeau »

Windows on Washington wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:48 am
BobBeau wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:08 am
TheWindowNerd wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:19 pm 5500 drafty and thin extrusions. Many years ago they were a primary offering for us. We became more concerned with AL, and gladly moved to so much better product.
Is this your opinion or do you have hard data to support this? First, please provide the "thin extrusion" data. I'm guessing you have the specs of each manufacturer's extrusion to provide this information. I'm not calling you a liar but I'd like to see it side by side to compare.

Second, "Air leakage". I love it when I'm in a home and the potential customer says, "the other guy told me his window has the best air leakage rating out there".

So apples to apples... Do you have the test information available to you by each manufacturer? The test is done by simulating a wind load of 25 mph or 1.57 psf over a period of time and is measured in cfm, correct? Different manufacturers use different size windows for testing. Unless the manufacturers are all using the same size windows, (which they are not) how do you determine who has a better air leakage rating. NFRC doesn't recognize anything below 0.1. So, while a manufacture may post their air leakage results on their website, I haven't seen one post the size of the window used for the test. Different size windows will leak more or less than others. Also, while I agree air infiltration is very important when considering new construction or replacement windows, how often do you have a constant 25 mph wind load against them? You said, "We became more concerned with AL". How are you comparing apples to apples when the window size used for the test is unknown?

I look forward to your response
Air leakage rates are indicated as CFM/FT. So the leakage is relative to the unit size. That said, you can test an exorbitantly large window to get a lower average Air Infiltration rating.

You can see that reflected here in Simonton's test data: https://www.simonton.com/wp-content/upl ... g-Data.pdf

The only DH unit they have that tests to a single digit is a DH that is 56 by 84. Hardly a normal sized window at 140UI.

Most air numbers you see tested are windows that are on the larger side of the normal range (i.e. 95-105UI). In that case, the two Simonton DH units tested on their list have an Air Infiltration rating of 0.21 and 0.19 respectively (average of 0.20).

Still in the "Qualified" range, but not what most would refer to as "tight".
I appreciate your response and the information provided. I am in no way portraying, or am under the illusion that Simonton is the best window on the market. But to say the window, in general, is drafty and flimsy is incorrect. It may be drafty when comparing the same size window of another manufacturer that achieves a lower number but whay about other manufacturers that cant achieve the minimum 0.3?

I'd still like to see the "flimsy" data.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Sunrise V Model vs Simonton 5500 vs Wincore 7700

#20 Post by Windows on Washington »

BobBeau wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:35 amI appreciate your response and the information provided. I am in no way portraying, or am under the illusion that Simonton is the best window on the market. But to say the window, in general, is drafty and flimsy is incorrect. It may be drafty when comparing the same size window of another manufacturer that achieves a lower number but whay about other manufacturers that cant achieve the minimum 0.3?

I'd still like to see the "flimsy" data.
Don't really disagree with that. See my comment from before.
  • Windows on Washington wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:42 pm Haven't installed them in years.

    Don't recall them being "flimsy", but they definitely aren't "tight" as compared to some of the other windows out there on the air leakage side of things.

BobBeau
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Re: Sunrise V Model vs Simonton 5500 vs Wincore 7700

#21 Post by BobBeau »

Windows on Washington wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:22 pm
BobBeau wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:35 amI appreciate your response and the information provided. I am in no way portraying, or am under the illusion that Simonton is the best window on the market. But to say the window, in general, is drafty and flimsy is incorrect. It may be drafty when comparing the same size window of another manufacturer that achieves a lower number but whay about other manufacturers that cant achieve the minimum 0.3?

I'd still like to see the "flimsy" data.
Don't really disagree with that. See my comment from before.
  • Windows on Washington wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:42 pm Haven't installed them in years.

    Don't recall them being "flimsy", but they definitely aren't "tight" as compared to some of the other windows out there on the air leakage side of things.
The flimsy data was directed towards, The window nerd's comment.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Sunrise V Model vs Simonton 5500 vs Wincore 7700

#22 Post by HomeSealed »

BobBeau wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:08 am
Second, "Air leakage". I love it when I'm in a home and the potential customer says, "the other guy told me his window has the best air leakage rating out there".

So apples to apples... Do you have the test information available to you by each manufacturer? The test is done by simulating a wind load of 25 mph or 1.57 psf over a period of time and is measured in cfm, correct? Different manufacturers use different size windows for testing. Unless the manufacturers are all using the same size windows, (which they are not) how do you determine who has a better air leakage rating. NFRC doesn't recognize anything below 0.1. So, while a manufacture may post their air leakage results on their website, I haven't seen one post the size of the window used for the test. Different size windows will leak more or less than others. Also, while I agree air infiltration is very important when considering new construction or replacement windows, how often do you have a constant 25 mph wind load against them? You said, "We became more concerned with AL". How are you comparing apples to apples when the window size used for the test is unknown?

I look forward to your response
WoW already addressed most of this, I'd only add that most window manufacturers that promote their excellent air infiltration ratings are pretty forthcoming with the test data. This can be found in brochures, websites, etc. Additionally, a gateway size must be used in structural certification process, this size is based on the type of certification/test performed (ie: Residential, light commercial, etc). This doesn't stop manufacturers from testing another size that was not used for that certification to achieve a better result, but certainly that would be a bit shady to promote it. Ironically, in my experience, its not the windows that have excellent air infiltration ratings that do that, its those that aren't so great. Not so coincidentally, the same windows with excellent AI ratings generally have similarly excellent DP, thermals, etc. One can try to pick apart the minutiae of these ratings (I've been there), but at the end of the day they are due to better quality, tighter tolerance, and go hand in had with other top tier performance ratings to prove it.

It doesn't matter what the NFRC recognizes as they don't do structural testing at all (no dp, no air or water infiltration). Their listing of AI on the NFRC label is a disservice to consumers for that reason in my honest opinion.
BobBeau wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:08 amIt may be drafty when comparing the same size window of another manufacturer that achieves a lower number but whay about other manufacturers that cant achieve the minimum 0.3?
I don't think anyone here would disagree with this, although its important to note that its extraordinarily rare to run into a window so awful that it has an AI above .30. I can say with certainty that I've experience far more service calls for "drafts" and windows in the teens and .20's than I have from those under .05.

BobBeau
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Re: Sunrise V Model vs Simonton 5500 vs Wincore 7700

#23 Post by BobBeau »

HomeSealed wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:33 pm It doesn't matter what the NFRC recognizes as they don't do structural testing at all (no dp, no air or water infiltration). Their listing of AI on the NFRC label is a disservice to consumers for that reason in my honest opinion.
I agree

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