Whole house replacement

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EndTheFed1984
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Whole house replacement

#1 Post by EndTheFed1984 »

I have 21 windows (insurance claim for hail damage) we are replacing and have had numerous bids for the work. Prices range from $23k to $55k, but several came in around $34k. These will be vinyl insert double hung windows. Comparing the NFRC data the Richlin 600 series (Built by Hayfield a local manufacture) windows actually have the best ratings (or tied) in almost every category. I understand the “lifetime” warranty is prorated after 10 years but we plan to sell the home in the next few so that isn’t as big of a concern to us. It is transferable to the next owner. The installer offers a 10 year labor warranty as well (non transferable). My question is for $10k what am I missing? The Richlin windows also offer a slim profile which is important because we are doing inserts and want to reduce the loss of glass. Is there another data point or something else I should be considering other than the NFRC data and warranties? The installer is well rated online and Angie’s List. The other windows quotes are for; Sierra Pacific 8500 series, Polaris Tech 7000 series+, Provia Endure, Sunrise, and Hayfield (non Richlin line) . I look forward to your input and thanks in advance!
Last edited by EndTheFed1984 on Tue May 03, 2022 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Whole house replacement

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

Where is the home located and what were the different products that you were getting quoted at those pricing tiers.

I am not sure why companies don't offer more than a 10 year labor warranty. We have never had to go back and service an install when it is done properly from the outset.

BTW...if your screen name is based in a felt sentiment of yours....I agree! We are living in what appears to be a dystopian Sci-Fi novel.

EndTheFed1984
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Re: Whole house replacement

#3 Post by EndTheFed1984 »

Yes it is!

I am in Minnesota

8000 series (Climatech?) $47045
Richlin 600 $22838
Sierra Pacific 8500 series $32808
Polaris Tech 7000 series+ $32650
Provia Endure $32842
Sunrise Essentials $36500
Hayfield 801 Series $34702

Thanks for any input you can provide.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Whole house replacement

#4 Post by Windows on Washington »

I want to pick apart the Richlin because the pricing is way out of phase with the others, but the data on this page doesn't look bad.

https://richlinwindow.com/storage/media ... ochure.pdf

I would scrap all the other options except the Polaris and the Provia.

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Re: Whole house replacement

#5 Post by TheWindowNerd »

I always look at tested results for air leakage. Their results are good.
I think you found your window.

EndTheFed1984
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Re: Whole house replacement

#6 Post by EndTheFed1984 »

Attached is the data breakdown of each window. Feels to good to be true... but I think it is.
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Windows on Washington
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Re: Whole house replacement

#7 Post by Windows on Washington »

That's what the chart showed me as well.

At that price, and given your climate, you might want to just ask about a Triple pane option.

EndTheFed1984
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Re: Whole house replacement

#8 Post by EndTheFed1984 »

Yeah, If I was keeping the house long term I would. We plan to sell in the next 3-5 years. I'd rather put the money into a bathroom remodel... Think I'm OK going Richlin or am I missing something?

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HomeSealed
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Re: Whole house replacement

#9 Post by HomeSealed »

Unless it changed recently, Richlin's structural ratings are Silver label certified as opposed to Gold label. That essentially means that the testing is not to the same standards (most products are Gold label certified) and the accuracy of the ratings is questionable. They also don't seem to be incredibly stable right now. They were bought out not that long ago, have an interim CEO, and seem to have struggled mightily through the pandemic and supply chain issues.
I've used the product and its not half bad, but at the very least I'd do more due diligence.

The pricing is a potential red flag as well (as WoW alluded to) which speaks to the installing company more than the product. You can have a miserable experience when you choose the wrong company to install the right product.

Personally, I'd opt for Polaris out of that bunch.

EndTheFed1984
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Re: Whole house replacement

#10 Post by EndTheFed1984 »

Thanks Homesealed. Can you point me towards where I can find more information regarding the structural ratings? When you say "accuracy of the ratings is questionable" aren't the NFRC ratings done independently?

The installer is highly rated on Angie, google, and other sites and offers a 10 year labor warranty.

I have another company coming out tonight who also reps Richlin. Is there anything specific I should ask them?

If the install wasn't a concern, and I'm selling this home in a few years do you really think the Polaris is worth another $10k?

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HomeSealed
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Re: Whole house replacement

#11 Post by HomeSealed »

EndTheFed1984 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 4:41 pm Thanks Homesealed. Can you point me towards where I can find more information regarding the structural ratings? When you say "accuracy of the ratings is questionable" aren't the NFRC ratings done independently?

The installer is highly rated on Angie, google, and other sites and offers a 10 year labor warranty.

I have another company coming out tonight who also reps Richlin. Is there anything specific I should ask them?

If the install wasn't a concern, and I'm selling this home in a few years do you really think the Polaris is worth another $10k?
You could ask them for a structural test report for the window line that you are considering.

NFRC tests thermal ratings, not structural. Structural ratings are tested and certified by ANSI certified lab, AAMA being the most popular.

As far as the Polaris being worth another $10k, that is a far more complicated answer than the simplicity of the question would indicate. If ALL else is 100% equal, no, I would not say that the Polaris is worth the extra $10k based only on product quality and performance.

With that said, there are other factors:

- $10k is a big difference, but is that because one is low or one is high? In this case, based on the info that you have provided, the low price is the outlier. This plants the "red flag" on that option as opposed to the higher price(s). I'll add this and I say it often, the home improvement industry is FILLED with horror stories and the vast majority are from folks that chose the lower price as opposed to the higher one. Most companies come and go as they don't know what it takes (pricing-wise) to run a sustainable company. $23k for 21 windows doesn't sound alarmingly low at face value, however based on the other prices I'm guessing that there is more detail that would explain that (such as twin and triple units being counted as (1), option content, install requirements, etc).

- If you knew that three years from now, the installer or the manufacturer or both would be out of business and unable to service you, would you still pocket the $10k? I would not, and I would say the expense is justified in that case. Windows have moving parts, seals, etc that do fail. Better products have fewer failures, but even the best have some issues. Unfortunately we don't have a crystal ball so there is no guarantee that any of these companies will go under or that any of them won't, but prioritizing history and stability helps. I mentioned that I've used Richlin in the past, and I've used Polaris as well. At this point in time, I wouldn't feel comfortable offering Richlin to my customers (just my opinion), but I would with Polaris. Take that for whatever its worth to you.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Whole house replacement

#12 Post by Windows on Washington »

I was not aware of some of the stuff that has been mentioned.

I would only add that if it feels too good to be true...it usually is.

EndTheFed1984
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Re: Whole house replacement

#13 Post by EndTheFed1984 »

Thanks for your input, but I'm gong to roll the dice on this because this company has been in business for 30 years and is Angie Super Installer, great google reviews, etc. Richlin/Hayfield is also a well established company and is produced locally. The contractor also offers a 10 year warranty on the labor.

Is there anything specific I should ensure is included in the installation contract? These are inserts.

What caulk is to be used? They said they use the "best".
Fiberglass/expansion foam around all windows
Back Caulked (I don't know what this is but it is something that a more expensive installer said they do.
Pan flashing
butyl tape?
Exterior stop
exterior aluminum wrap
screen included
Clean up and removal included
Dumpster included

Am I forgetting anything?

fridge2020
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Re: Whole house replacement

#14 Post by fridge2020 »

Silver label is a really low bar, even some of the worst windows are gold. Pretty much any reputable manufacturer is.

Good point about them using the BEST caulk though. Gotta be a good choice in that case.

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Re: Whole house replacement

#15 Post by Windows on Washington »

Foam only. Fiberglass is worthless.
There is no butyl tape requirement on a retrofit install.
Capping is standard in most cases.

What is coming out? Wood window given the reference to a "stop"?

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