Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

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facesnorth
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Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#1 Post by facesnorth »

Hello,

I had [company name redacted] from Allentown, PA visit my house yesterday to give me a quote on 23 window replacements. They call the 800DX the 1000 series but it's the same window. 18 of them are white interior/white exterior. 5 of them would be with the dark oak interior w/ bronze hardware/white exterior. I requested SDL grids for all 23 (interior/exterior). 7 of the windows will have mullion removal/replacement.

Initially he miscounted my windows as 22 not 23, and the quote came in at $64k for just white/white on all of them, this was before we decided to make 5 of them with the dark oak. After all their discounts it was brought down to $38k. I explained that this was not even remotely feasible. He called his boss and suddenly the price was ok'd at $22k or $1000 per window. Then we discovered that he miscounted the qty of windows and so the price went to $23k since there are actually 23 windows. After we agreed to this, we then decided to make 5 of the windows with the dark oak interior/bronze hardware and this added $250 per window for those 5, so now we're at $24250. This was all during the course of his initial consultation yesterday.

I still felt this was high, but he insisted that this was a price he's never seen before and was surprised his boss was even able to approve it. In fact he asked me to keep the price confidential. I agreed and I would have honored that, except just now I received a phone call from him that his boss made a mistake and thought I had requested the interior contour grids, not the SDL grids, and that the lowest they could do was $27180, but that if I switched to the contour grids I could still get the $24250 price. I heard him say SDL grids several times to his boss on the phone, so maybe his boss needs to clean out his ears.

After all of this, I am very hesitant to proceed as I was already feeling like I was getting pinched and there have been too many red flags. I wanted to ask the community of pros if this is a fair price for this or should I walk away. The other thing that concerned me a little was that they use subcontracted labor, but he assured me that all of their contractors have been working with them for 8-10 years or longer.
Last edited by facesnorth on Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

randy
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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#2 Post by randy »

While I don’t care for the large price drop, the final pricing is extremely reasonable. The subcontractor relationship shouldn’t be an issue at all, IMO. In my area, the best installers are all subcontractors and captive installers are generally second tier.

If The Window Nerd serves your area, you should speak with him for a straight forward approach without the gimmicks.

facesnorth
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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#3 Post by facesnorth »

Unfortunately I don't think The Window Nerd comes up to Monroe county (Stroudsburg area).

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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#4 Post by TheWindowNerd »

We have done projects in the area.
I am not sure I can meet your budget. I quesstimated your project at $29,532. This assumes the new price increase the first part of July.

I don't like many of the games the dealer is playing nor the information errors. There is a 1000 series, it is not the 800dx Enviro Star.

On the labor side, I prefer employee installers. My guys are the best along with DEMike. I have tried many subs, paid them well but the results are inferior. theWindowNerd stallions are well feed and watered. They are happy, bust their butts, and are the cream of the crop.

facesnorth
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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#5 Post by facesnorth »

Since I signed and gave a deposit yesterday, is it possible that I got the current pricing, and not the price increase set to start tomorrow? That would put his quote in line with yours. That's unfortunate to hear about the price increase but comforting that it doesn't sound like I'm being ripped off. I also don't like that they have their own names and model numbers for these windows. I would like better assurance that what I'm getting is in fact the Himark 800DX and not something else.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#6 Post by HomeSealed »

Few thoughts:

1) The Himark 1000 is a model. This is different than the 800dx completely. Did the window that you looked at have hidden butt-joined welds on the sash, or conventional 45 degree welds? Go to himarkwindows.com to see the 1000, and Oknawindows.com to see the Envirostar 800(dx).

2) The pricing is extraordinarily low either way. I'd say bottom 10% of Okna dealers price-wise. If that is the 1000 model, even more so.

3) I come out on Randy's side regarding sub vs employee, the best guys in my area are 1099 installers even though we have guys paid be 1099 and w2. That said, I think that there are a bunch of circumstances that can dictate which is better based on the individual market and other factors. At the end of the day, I wouldn't let that aspect carry too much weight. If a company has an excellent reputation that will tell you all you need to know, regardless of how Uncle Sam gets his cut.

... Lastly, and with that segue, Window Nerd is one of the best. I'm not sure if those are Italian stallions being in Philly, or just the regular variety of stallion, but either way I can guarantee that you'll get great work from his group if he serves your area.

facesnorth
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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#7 Post by facesnorth »

The sashes from what I remember did not have 45 degree welds. He also had a 600 series model example, which had the 45 degree welds. This one had horizontal welds, which I believe he said was to make it look more wood like with the colored finishes.

It also did not have that little metal handle thingie that I see on pictures of the 800dx. Yet another reason to be concerned, that the salesman does not seem to know the difference between all their models. Otherwise, we did have a very good rapport and I got the feeling that the company would do a good job, even with their contractors.

Is the 1000 series or the 800dx series the better window? I usually see recommendations on the 800dx here as being the best.

Thanks.

facesnorth
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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#8 Post by facesnorth »

So I see from the website links you posted above that the 800dx has 45 degree welds and the himark 1000 series has straight welds. The window must definitely be the himark 1000 series. So is this a better window than the 800dx? Maybe I will just stick with it and give them the extra money they are asking for in that case.

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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#9 Post by Windows on Washington »

1000 series has a butt joined weld (i.e. interior) on the sashes. Different sash and frame profile, designed for a deeper glass package.

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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#10 Post by HomeSealed »

The Himark 1000 is a step up from the Envirostar 800 in the Okna model hierarchy. Its second only to the Starmark composite. Its a newer model, hence why you see the 800 discussed as the flagship most commonly. Both are excellent and have similar performance, with the 1000 nudging ahead when triple pane is chosen, and in the DP rating. There are a couple of design features that get mixed reviews, with the protruded screen track, lack of sash lift (handle), and very thick sash/glass pack. The 800 has remained more popular for some of these reasons, it really depends what you prefer.

...I'll say this though, product and price are only 2/3's of the equation, installation and service are extremely important as well. I'd reiterate the recommendation of Window Nerd for that reason. Checks all three boxes for great product, price, and install where the third is an unknown in the other case.

facesnorth
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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#11 Post by facesnorth »

Had I known TheWindowNerd serviced my area I would have had him up to give me a quote but it just doesn't feel right jumping ship at this point as I feel the pricing error was an honest mistake and I have a good rapport with my salesman. That said, I did just send him a message through his website asking if he wants to review my quote and to see what his quote would be. As I'm still trying to get to the bottom of what model I'm even receiving.

So it sounds like he's selling me the newer series which is even more costly than the 800dx but has some pros and cons. I'm not getting triple pane, but the example that he brought was a triple pane window, so I kind of wish I could see what the double pane version looks like.

I've actually never been a fan of the metal sash handles on the 800dx, so the lack of those is kind of refreshing. He says the 1000 series has the same foam fill in the sashes etc. He says this is the "Himark" window. Whereas you guys I believe say that Himark is not a window model, but rather more of a status that a dealer can earn via abiding by certain installation standards and sales numbers etc. So any Okna window can be referred to as a Himark window if it's a Himark dealer, yes?

I also had a Starmark quote from a different dealer from up in Pittston, PA that was even lower in price than this quote. If the Himark 10000 is second only to the Starmark does that make the Starmark Okna's top window? Should I be rethinking that quote instead?

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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#12 Post by TheWindowNerd »

I think it depends on your goal.
And what you like the look of.
Some models at Okna/HiMark are program windows that require a certain volume or commitment from the dealer. I’ll let some one else explain that one if you want more info.

If the handle is your distress with the 800, then get it without the handle. We have done this for several clients and they love it.

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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#13 Post by HomeSealed »

facesnorth wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:13 pm Had I known TheWindowNerd serviced my area I would have had him up to give me a quote but it just doesn't feel right jumping ship at this point as I feel the pricing error was an honest mistake and I have a good rapport with my salesman. That said, I did just send him a message through his website asking if he wants to review my quote and to see what his quote would be. As I'm still trying to get to the bottom of what model I'm even receiving.

So it sounds like he's selling me the newer series which is even more costly than the 800dx but has some pros and cons. I'm not getting triple pane, but the example that he brought was a triple pane window, so I kind of wish I could see what the double pane version looks like.

I've actually never been a fan of the metal sash handles on the 800dx, so the lack of those is kind of refreshing. He says the 1000 series has the same foam fill in the sashes etc. He says this is the "Himark" window. Whereas you guys I believe say that Himark is not a window model, but rather more of a status that a dealer can earn via abiding by certain installation standards and sales numbers etc. So any Okna window can be referred to as a Himark window if it's a Himark dealer, yes?

I also had a Starmark quote from a different dealer from up in Pittston, PA that was even lower in price than this quote. If the Himark 10000 is second only to the Starmark does that make the Starmark Okna's top window? Should I be rethinking that quote instead?
1) The HiMark/Okna thing is slightly confusing as it has evolved over the years. HiMark used to be a separate dealer network that sold the 800, 500, etc. That never really gained a ton of traction, so when Okna created the new 1000 series model, they named it the HiMark. There are some other bits and pieces to the story that would probably just make it more confusing, but generally speaking when someone is talking about "HiMark", they are referring to that 1000 series window as the website would suggest. It is less common to see someone still sell an 800 or 500 as a "HiMark" branded window, but not impossible so it is helpful to know the numerical designation of the model being considered. That makes it black and white.

2) The Starmark composite is a phenomenal window in every way. I'm shocked to hear that your quote for that model is less, I wonder if there are differences in other areas such as the installation type?

3) You won't go wrong with any of these three models. The best recommendation that I can give would be to ensure that you are getting an excellent installation and working with a trustworthy and reliable company, I'll just reiterate that Window Nerd is one of the best there is. I'd weight that aspect more heavily than the differences between these models.

facesnorth
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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#14 Post by facesnorth »

OK thanks! That's the info I was looking for. I only had 3 days from the time I was given the quote to cancel, and I did not cancel in that timeframe, so I'm locked in now. I would have liked to have taken some more time to do more research, but they were only able to guarantee me that pricing by putting the order through with the June orders, not July. It may have been a sales tactic, but it seemed legit with the price increase that was mentioned for July 1st. In any event, it's too late to turn back now. I at one point had a cheaper quote for Starmark's with a different company up in Pittston (Northeast Windows) and part of me wishes I'd gone in that direction as I really liked those windows. At the time a few years ago, they offered them with a paintable interior option which would have been nice. Ultimately I think both companies seem to have good reviews and I think will do a nice job. I'll provide feedback in mid-August once the job is completed.

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Re: Advice on quote for Himark 800DX in NEPA

#15 Post by HomeSealed »

My normal response would be to cancel and take your time, you can always go back to the first choice if you want. That said, this price increase was legitimate and significant, so hard to blame you.

The old Starmark had the stainable interior and was pretty bulky. The new model is a couple years old now and much better (slimmer frame, better performance, etc). If the lower quote that you had was on the old unit, it would probably be significantly more today and the window that you chose is better than that outgoing model IMO anyway.

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