New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

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BNPD
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New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#1 Post by BNPD »

I have a huge picture window (single pane) that is bordered by 2 large metal frame casements. To keep aesthetics, I want to retain the picture window, but replace the casements with double hung windows.

With my research, I have narrowed down a short list of features:
-Reinforced Window Sills
-Fully welded sash corners and frames
-Reinforced Sashs and meeting rails
-Fridge type weather stripping
-Non metallic spacers
-Low E Glass, with argon.
-Constant force balance mechanism.
-Double pane

With those requirements I set out to run the gamut of window quotes (more players came, however some of them bowed out due to limitations on that picture window):

Home Depot: Simonton 6500 series: $5500
Window World: 4000 series: $4500


Window World seems like they make their own products in house, lifetime warranty on both parts and labor (glass breakage if you add in the solar glass package).

Should I consult an OKNA dealer and what product line should I be looking at for a window that I want for longevity?

Location is: Tristate Area

TheWindowNerd
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#2 Post by TheWindowNerd »

If you are looking for the lowest price then you should look no further.
If you can not afford to do it twice perhaps you should.
Do you have any concern about performance? Both the product and the install?
Product wise casements are prone to more draft than casements. The design change you are seeking will produce unwanted air infiltration. DH should be .04 or less AL.
Some of your specs I would not consider important, like cf balances, reinforced sill, fridge type seal( what does that mean?).
You may have trouble getting the best installers to take a look due to the low volume.
What is the overall size of the opening? Is the metal steel or aluminum? Will the new unit be 1/4- 1/2- 1/4 ?
theWindowNerd

Ricknez
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#3 Post by Ricknez »

Window world does not make their own window contrary to what they say. They use MI Windows and Alside and they throw the window world name on the locks.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#4 Post by Windows on Washington »

Of those two, the Simonton is the better unit. That said, there are windows that are going to give you more glass, better thermal performance, and much better air infiltration ratings.

Should easily be able to locate an Okna dealer somewhere around your neck of the woods.

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HomeSealed
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#5 Post by HomeSealed »

Good advice from the other pros.

Overall, I'd encourage you to look at the thermal and structural product ratings as opposed to the individual features-- the sum of the parts so to speak. Some of the worst windows on the market check most boxes in terms of features to look for, looking at how that translates to performance will tell you how it will work for you as well as offering an indication of the product quality.
U value
SHGC
CR
DP
AI (air infiltration)

BNPD
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#6 Post by BNPD »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:11 am If you are looking for the lowest price then you should look no further.
If you can not afford to do it twice perhaps you should.
Do you have any concern about performance? Both the product and the install?
Product wise casements are prone to more draft than casements. The design change you are seeking will produce unwanted air infiltration. DH should be .04 or less AL.
Some of your specs I would not consider important, like cf balances, reinforced sill, fridge type seal( what does that mean?).
You may have trouble getting the best installers to take a look due to the low volume.
What is the overall size of the opening? Is the metal steel or aluminum? Will the new unit be 1/4- 1/2- 1/4 ?
theWindowNerd
Can you elaborate on the casements draft issue? I am trying to go from metal (steel) frame, single pane casement window that needs a supplementary storm window (interior) to keep the cold weather out. The picture window is a thick single pane.

Sizing wise the opening is 160 W (88W Picture, 36W Casements) x 48-50H (1 window is 48H, 1 window is 48.5H, picture is 50H).

The new unit would be Double Hung-Picture-Double Hung.

Just to pull from the Simonton Installer and how they're approaching it.

Picture Window, White Int. Finish, White Ext. Finish, Standard , W- 88, H- 48, UI- 136
Double Hung, White Int. Finish, White Ext. Finish, Standard , W- 36, H- 48, UI- 84

1-New Interior Stool F&I - Insert (Stain Grade Pine) Includes Apron, 3-Window/Door Wrap, 2-Steel
Window/Pan Work - Removal or Modify, 1-New Buck Frame

BNPD
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#7 Post by BNPD »

Ricknez wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:01 am Window world does not make their own window contrary to what they say. They use MI Windows and Alside and they throw the window world name on the locks.
The more I look into it, MI and Suncore. I dont know which specific company they would contract for this order "4000" series windows order.

BNPD
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#8 Post by BNPD »

HomeSealed wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:42 pm Good advice from the other pros.

Overall, I'd encourage you to look at the thermal and structural product ratings as opposed to the individual features-- the sum of the parts so to speak. Some of the worst windows on the market check most boxes in terms of features to look for, looking at how that translates to performance will tell you how it will work for you as well as offering an indication of the product quality.
U value
SHGC
CR
DP
AI (air infiltration)
I reached out to an OKNA installer, and they mentioned different lineups on OKNA. Any specific targets you can recommend on those performance metrics for a house in the northeast/winter?

Any specific models to avoid for a residential house (some windows are geared to a project type I assume like rentals etc)? Any idea the ROI on composite over a vinyl window?

Finally, warranty concerns, specifically installer/labor warranties.
The window products themselves carry 20+ year warranties as an industry standard (at least from all the companies I spoke to), the installer/labor warranty varies greatly depending on the outfit.

Big Box/franchises seem to be offering the max on warranties 5+, while OKNA and other company certified installers/dealers only offer a 1 year warranty.

TheWindowNerd
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#9 Post by TheWindowNerd »

My apology, it is casements that are less prone to air leakage. DH have a vast variance on air infiltration. That is why it is important to use a DH with a low tested air leakage test result.

You might consider making the DHs 40" so that the PW will be 80". Is there any structural load concern with the opening. The old steel can add support the vinyl cannot. Has anyone spoken about adding structural mulls?

We do a 2 year warranty, it is 2X better than the norm and reasonable.
In My area there is a third generation contractor that closed the family business and reopened because his dad had written lifetime warranties.

theWindowNerd

TheWindowNerd
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#10 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Okna 800DX is the unit we find to be the best. The 600Dx is a step down for us.

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HomeSealed
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#11 Post by HomeSealed »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:21 am In My area there is a third generation contractor that closed the family business and reopened because his dad had written lifetime warranties.

theWindowNerd
Not knowing any specifics of that situation, I'd propose that it would not have been the existence of said warranty that put them out of business, but their failure to charge a price that would support that benefit long term. A warranty is a cost, just like paying more for a better window or better installers. One must charge accordingly-- and also be sure to do good work in the first place. I can't imagine turning away a customer with installation issues on their 3 year old windows because their warranty expired. I just couldn't do it.

Perhaps we are getting off-track in this conversation, but @BNPD, clearly the length of the workmanship warranty is something to seriously consider when assessing the value of a proposal.

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HomeSealed
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#12 Post by HomeSealed »

BNPD wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:19 pm
HomeSealed wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:42 pm Good advice from the other pros.

Overall, I'd encourage you to look at the thermal and structural product ratings as opposed to the individual features-- the sum of the parts so to speak. Some of the worst windows on the market check most boxes in terms of features to look for, looking at how that translates to performance will tell you how it will work for you as well as offering an indication of the product quality.
U value
SHGC
CR
DP
AI (air infiltration)
BNPD wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:19 pm I reached out to an OKNA installer, and they mentioned different lineups on OKNA. Any specific targets you can recommend on those performance metrics for a house in the northeast/winter?
All of Okna's products are engineered primarily for cold weather locations. They have a full lineup of models as you know, starting with the Starmark Evo composite, and on down through the vinyl lines.
BNPD wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:19 pm Any specific models to avoid for a residential house (some windows are geared to a project type I assume like rentals etc)? Any idea the ROI on composite over a vinyl window?
I'd avoid the 400 line. Outside of that, each model has some various differences and option offerings as well as a hierarchy in performance. I love the composite window, its phenomenal in every way from looks to performance. As far as ROI it will depend on a variety of factors, but I wouldn't count on making up the cost difference in energy savings. With that said, a composite window certainly does carry more value when it comes to resale and is viewed as a higher end offering --which it is.
BNPD wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:19 pm Finally, warranty concerns, specifically installer/labor warranties.
The window products themselves carry 20+ year warranties as an industry standard (at least from all the companies I spoke to), the installer/labor warranty varies greatly depending on the outfit.

Big Box/franchises seem to be offering the max on warranties 5+, while OKNA and other company certified installers/dealers only offer a 1 year warranty.
Certainly something to consider as I discussed in previous post. That said, would I choose an inferior product and/or install simply due to a longer installation warranty? No way. In fact, I'd highly encourage you to work with an established local company with an excellent reputation. Box stores and WW "type" companies are generally the lowest paying companies when it comes to installers. That results in a revolving door of low quality installers and questionable installation in my experience. Below average products and low paid installers are not a good recipe for success at any price.

BNPD
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#13 Post by BNPD »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:21 am My apology, it is casements that are less prone to air leakage. DH have a vast variance on air infiltration. That is why it is important to use a DH with a low tested air leakage test result.

You might consider making the DHs 40" so that the PW will be 80". Is there any structural load concern with the opening. The old steel can add support the vinyl cannot. Has anyone spoken about adding structural mulls?

We do a 2 year warranty, it is 2X better than the norm and reasonable.
In My area there is a third generation contractor that closed the family business and reopened because his dad had written lifetime warranties.

theWindowNerd
Thanks for clarifying the casement providing a better overall seal, and the importance of AI ratings of DH windows.

I have seen a couple neighbors who changed the dimensions (width mostly) of their window setup, primarily decreasing the picture and increasing the flanking DHs and they look comically bad. Dont know if that cartoonish outcome could be fixed by keeping casements but overall without a finished example I dont want to risk a cartoonesque setup for that room and would probably keep things in the same dimensions.

The structural load concerns have not been addressed thus far by both installers. The tech specialist who was brought along side the sales rep for one of the quotes, amended the original quote by 25% to include box outs, stools, casings/sills, etc.

BNPD
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#14 Post by BNPD »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:22 am Okna 800DX is the unit we find to be the best. The 600Dx is a step down for us.
Whats makes them a step down in relation to performance where the glass packages are constant?

Just for reference and please correct me if Im wrong here:
600
https://www.starmarkwindows.com/media/c ... 022_sm.pdf

800
https://www.starmarkwindows.com/media/c ... 022_sm.pdf

7500 Starmark composite
https://www.starmarkwindows.com/media/c ... 021(1).pdf



600 800 7500
SHGC .30 .29 .29
U value .26 .26 .25
CR 62 63 could not find
AI (air infiltration) .02 .01 .03
DP (design pressure) 171 187 70

BNPD
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Re: New Construction Windows, am I doing this right?

#15 Post by BNPD »

HomeSealed wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:57 am
All of Okna's products are engineered primarily for cold weather locations. They have a full lineup of models as you know, starting with the Starmark Evo composite, and on down through the vinyl lines.

I'd avoid the 400 line. Outside of that, each model has some various differences and option offerings as well as a hierarchy in performance. I love the composite window, its phenomenal in every way from looks to performance. As far as ROI it will depend on a variety of factors, but I wouldn't count on making up the cost difference in energy savings. With that said, a composite window certainly does carry more value when it comes to resale and is viewed as a higher end offering --which it is.

Certainly something to consider as I discussed in previous post. That said, would I choose an inferior product and/or install simply due to a longer installation warranty? No way. In fact, I'd highly encourage you to work with an established local company with an excellent reputation. Box stores and WW "type" companies are generally the lowest paying companies when it comes to installers. That results in a revolving door of low quality installers and questionable installation in my experience. Below average products and low paid installers are not a good recipe for success at any price.
My primary concern with this project is performance as a window, and not resale value down the line. I will take your advice on avoiding the 400 lineup.

You do bring up a valid point that where should a customer place more value, on the warranty that comes with an inferior product or a good product with a limited warranty. Its a tough call and one that seems like a tossup.

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