Stunned into stupidity

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digiweb

Stunned into stupidity

#1 Post by digiweb »

Hi guys - I've read some really great posts on this forum from people who have strong opinions about quality. Which is great because I desperately need help. I am overloaded, mis-informed and dragged down to the floor. Buying windows is like trying to survive a lawsuit. They keep throwing information at me, not shutting up, and just sticking around to wear me down. The last salesman said he wouldn't take up too much of my time by repeating himself in 6 different ways about how careful he'd be with my time.

I am ready to pop someone.

The windows are for my mom. She's in New Jersey. I'm not.

Her condo requires white, 8 over 8 (3 vertical, 1 horizontal), and double hung. Of course she wants the tax credit.

Renewal tried to sell her $1500 windows. EACH. A large contractor in Roselle Park tried to sell her vinyl for $1k each. I called him on it. I told him there is no such thing as a $1k vinyl window. The salesman said, "Oh I am so sorry I entered the wrong window, I meant to give your mother Okna." That was a fun argument. It was not easy getting my mother's check back. Even then I only won that fight because I do reputation marketing on the internet. Fastest scare I ever put into a bullshit company. I explained to the antagonistically argumentative "night manager" that I wanted my mother's check back as the next day would be three days since she wrote it; I wanted to maintain my right of recision. I got nowhere. We yelled at each other. Then I told him what I do for a living. I do reputation marketing. That means I make sure your company is findable in a good light on the internet. Well that works in reverse, too. I explained to him that I was going to tell my story on the internet, and then it would be the first thing anyone saw when searching for their company. It's not libel if it's the truth. He went to my mother's house at 9:30pm THAT NIGHT and gave her back her check.

For every window we decide is a good buy, we get 15 arguments why we've made the wrong decision. [This Brand][This Model] has (pick up to 3) things wrong with it: too much tint; too bulky; not thick enough; won't qualify for $1500 if you put the grid inside the glass; manufacturer is a pain to deal with; lifetime warranty is bait and switch; Royal extrusion is a faulty process; those frames aren't strong enough; that material will warp; the spacer in that window is insufficient; this window has bad heat gain in New Jersey.

I am so tired I want to cry. I am so sick of being lied to and taken for a fool.

My mother needs 8 windows. She was ready to settle for 4 because the prices were so far out of her budget. Our current crop of salesmen are dissing Andersen 400 and Starmark Okna, pushing American Jewel and Royal Prime. I saw the argument against Jewel on another thread here. I have no idea what these windows are worth.

Is there such a thing as a quality window that qualifies for the credit, with 8 over 8 grids, white and white, replacement (it's a condo) for $300-$600 installed, that does NOT come with some life-sucking, soul-destroying sales pitch?

Thank you so much for your replies,

Caroline

TheWindowNerd
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Re: Stunned into stupidity

#2 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Yes, Okna 400 , Soft-lite imperial LS, Simonton 5500.

windowxpertsplus

Re: Stunned into stupidity

#3 Post by windowxpertsplus »

New Jersey is one of the toughest markets out there, i know first hand. If your mom lives in a condo the install is usually a little more difficult, but i would say that you should be able to install a good quality window for around $550. all said and done. $300-400. seem very low so you might want to steer clear of those #'s. There are plenty of good companies out there, i know the contractor that you are speaking of in Roselle Park i believe his last name starts with a P. if you are having any troubles getting your $$ back feel free to e-mail me. Everyone on these boards will have different opinions on what a good quality window is. try to go with someone who your mom feels comfortable with that is offering a well known window. just because it is energy tax credit approved does not mean that it is quality. in my opinion Simonton, gorell, harvey are quality. good luck, its a jungle out there

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Delaware Mike
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Re: Stunned into stupidity

#4 Post by Delaware Mike »

I know the area that you are talking about. I have to take a trip up there about every 2 months for additional technical training for an entire week. There are so many window outfits up that way, seems like one on every corner. You might want to contact Simonton directly as there is one the best window dealers out there right in your area. He actually posts on this board and is real straight shooter with all the experience and integrity that you could ever ask for in a window contractor. If Simonton hooks you up with several authorized dealers, just post back the intials of the dealer and I'll let you know if you have the outfit.

Soft-Lite, Sunrise, Simonton, OKNA, Gorrel, are all very good brands to start with depending upon what series each individual dealer has access to.

thermal99

Re: Stunned into stupidity

#5 Post by thermal99 »

american jewel,royal prime should get scratched off your list immediately.

digiweb

Re: Stunned into stupidity

#6 Post by digiweb »

anthony wrote:Yes, Okna 400 , Soft-lite imperial LS, Simonton 5500.
Anthony - thank you for these names. Can you -- or anyone -- tell me approximately what a fair price is for any of these installed,
8 windows
8 over 8,
white and white,
double hung,
grill inside
38x60,
qualifies for credit

thanks

digiweb

Re: Stunned into stupidity

#7 Post by digiweb »

windowxpertsplus wrote:New Jersey is one of the toughest markets out there, i know first hand.
Indeed. It's the most densely populated state there is, I think. Lots of competition.

Curiously the window replacement specialists are really not findable in Google. Since that's what I do - get businesses found in Google -- it really shocked me how hard it was to find contractors over the internet.

windowxpertsplus wrote:If your mom lives in a condo the install is usually a little more difficult,
Really? These are not new construction windows so I'm not sure why a condo makes a difference. New construction windows might be nice but why bother antagonizing the condo association.

windowxpertsplus wrote:but i would say that you should be able to install a good quality window for around $550. all said and done. $300-400. seem very low so you might want to steer clear of those #'s.
If I can do high quality for $550 I'll be happy.
windowxpertsplus wrote: There are plenty of good companies out there, i know the contractor that you are speaking of in Roselle Park i believe his last name starts with a P. if you are having any troubles getting your $$ back feel free to e-mail me.
Indeed his name starts with P. I did get our money back but I am very grateful for your offer. Thank you.


windowxpertsplus wrote: Everyone on these boards will have different opinions on what a good quality window is. try to go with someone who your mom feels comfortable with that is offering a well known window. just because it is energy tax credit approved does not mean that it is quality. in my opinion Simonton, gorell, harvey are quality. good luck, its a jungle out there
"Well known" doesn't seem to cut it with a lot of professionals. I've had a number of professions say I shouldn't buy Andersen, Marvin or Pella. Andersen and Marvin because they're putting too much coating to meet the tax credit requirements. Pella has a gigantic thread over at gardenweb.com. Apparently they've been taken over by Dilbert's boss.

Thank you for your reply. If anyone on this board does business in Westfield I'd like to chat if you're interested in this job.

digiweb

Re: Stunned into stupidity

#8 Post by digiweb »

Delaware Mike wrote:I know the area that you are talking about. I have to take a trip up there about every 2 months for additional technical training for an entire week. There are so many window outfits up that way, seems like one on every corner. You might want to contact Simonton directly as there is one the best window dealers out there right in your area. He actually posts on this board and is real straight shooter with all the experience and integrity that you could ever ask for in a window contractor. If Simonton hooks you up with several authorized dealers, just post back the intials of the dealer and I'll let you know if you have the outfit.

Soft-Lite, Sunrise, Simonton, OKNA, Gorrel, are all very good brands to start with depending upon what series each individual dealer has access to.
Re: Simonton, initials and brands you like. Thank you! I will take you up on that.

pondscum
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Re: Stunned into stupidity

#9 Post by pondscum »

It's really hard to say what a fair installation price is without seeing the house and existing windows. I found that my quotes were all higher than what seems to be "normal", even for this area (Boston). After a while I realized that my installation is not "normal", either -- my old windows are aluminum rather than wood and need to be removed from the exterior rather than the more typical interior install, I have some oversized windows in awkward locations on upper floors where the installers are going to have to work on ladders or scaffolding both inside and out, etc. It seems pretty obvious that somebody doing standard insert replacement of normal-sized windows in a ranch house is going to end up paying a lot less for installation than I am.

digiweb

Re: Stunned into stupidity

#10 Post by digiweb »

pondscum wrote:It's really hard to say what a fair installation price is without seeing the house and existing windows. I found that my quotes were all higher than what seems to be "normal", even for this area (Boston). After a while I realized that my installation is not "normal", either -- my old windows are aluminum rather than wood and need to be removed from the exterior rather than the more typical interior install, I have some oversized windows in awkward locations on upper floors where the installers are going to have to work on ladders or scaffolding both inside and out, etc. It seems pretty obvious that somebody doing standard insert replacement of normal-sized windows in a ranch house is going to end up paying a lot less for installation than I am.
Understood. I think this job can be characterized as straightforward. No rot, 38x60 standard size, totally accessible locations.

TheWindowNerd
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Re: Stunned into stupidity

#11 Post by TheWindowNerd »

IMO 500-550

thermal99

Re: Stunned into stupidity

#12 Post by thermal99 »

agree, about 550 area.

buddy110
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Re: Stunned into stupidity

#13 Post by buddy110 »

I can't add much more to the advise you've gotten. I will say Marvin is excellent quality but out of your budget. Gorell, Okna and softlite are top brands. Andersen not so much :). You can get them in your price list. Have you looked on Angies list?

digiweb

Re: Stunned into stupidity

#14 Post by digiweb »

buddy110 wrote:I can't add much more to the advise you've gotten. I will say Marvin is excellent quality but out of your budget. Gorell, Okna and softlite are top brands. Andersen not so much :). You can get them in your price list. Have you looked on Angies list?
I considered Angie's list last night -- haven't pulled the trigger since it's a pay site. I would if it came to that.

thermal99

Re: Stunned into stupidity

#15 Post by thermal99 »

the best thing to do is meet with the contractor and see his product as well as how he acts during the presentation.that is really the best way.

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