Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

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facesnorth
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Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#1 Post by facesnorth »

Perhaps this is best left as it's own topic, especially as I'm in need of an answer ASAP so I can decide whether or not to move on a signed quote. (They were expecting my answer by tonight).

What is the difference between the Himark 1000 series and the 800dx? I can't find any information from my searches except for a shady website or 2 that don't really provide any solid info.

Which is better, what are the differences?

Thanks!

TheWindowNerd
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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#2 Post by TheWindowNerd »

The 1000 ws a triple pane vinyl unit that used a 1 3/16 glass package, which is best for TP.
The had trouble getting it off the ground and have pulled back on it. They got enough to take care of.

We sell almost exclusively the 800Dx, my lead mechanics love it. It is a vinyl window that checks all the boxs.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#3 Post by HomeSealed »

The Himark 1000 is a step up from the Envirostar 800 in the Okna model hierarchy. Its second only to the Starmark composite. Its a newer model, hence why you see the 800 discussed as the flagship most commonly. Both are excellent and have similar performance, with the 1000 nudging ahead when triple pane is chosen, and in the DP rating. There are a couple of design features that get mixed reviews (mainly aesthetics), with the protruded screen track, lack of sash lift (handle), and very thick sash/glass pack. The 800 has remained more popular for some of these reasons, it really depends what you prefer. Both are excellent and a couple of the top performing windows available anywhere.

facesnorth
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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#4 Post by facesnorth »

What keeps bugging me is this statement: second only to the Starmark composite.

Why is Himark with its series numbered as 1000 second to the Starmark with its series numbered as 900?

I have to admit it's giving me a bit of buyers remorse especially since I could have gotten the Starmark for much cheaper, but I thought that I was at least getting a more premium product by going with Himark.

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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#5 Post by HomeSealed »

facesnorth wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 4:22 pm What keeps bugging me is this statement: second only to the Starmark composite.

Why is Himark with its series numbered as 1000 second to the Starmark with its series numbered as 900?

I have to admit it's giving me a bit of buyers remorse especially since I could have gotten the Starmark for much cheaper, but I thought that I was at least getting a more premium product by going with Himark.
Its not. The old Starmark was the 900 series. The new one is the 7500. Where did they come up with that number? No idea... The Himark 1000 is superior to the old 900 Starmark IMO.

You definitely should not feel as though you didn't get a premium product. There is not another vinyl window on the market that really matches the 1000. As I alluded to earlier, unless I misunderstood you that previous Starmark price that you had may be for the old model if its not super recent. If that is the case, it would be about 82 price increases ago as well.
Last edited by HomeSealed on Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

facesnorth
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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#6 Post by facesnorth »

Ahh, gotcha. Now I understand. The last quote I received from August 2019 does indeed say 7500 series. The pricing apples to apples with my current quote would have been about $5k cheaper than I am paying for himarks with my current quote. With price increases since then, it may very well be more in line with my current quote however. They sound like comparable quality windows just a styling preference. As it turns out I probably would have preferred the styling of the Starmarks, but I'm going to try not to obsess over it, as at the very least I'm getting a very good quality window all around.

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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#7 Post by HomeSealed »

facesnorth wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:14 pm Ahh, gotcha. Now I understand. The last quote I received from August 2019 does indeed say 7500 series. The pricing apples to apples with my current quote would have been about $5k cheaper than I am paying for himarks with my current quote. With price increases since then, it may very well be more in line with my current quote however. They sound like comparable quality windows just a styling preference. As it turns out I probably would have preferred the styling of the Starmarks, but I'm going to try not to obsess over it, as at the very least I'm getting a very good quality window all around.
You are getting a phenomenal window and as I alluded to on the other thread, that pricing is very aggressive as well.

facesnorth
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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#8 Post by facesnorth »

I had this window job done back in October and it was absolutely an abomination.

The installers did the entire job, removal and installation of 27 windows in 2 days. They stayed late the 2nd day and it was dark and I was very tired, and I mistakenly assumed everything was done correctly, so I handed the 3rd check to them when they asked for it on their way out.

I had expected that we would go through everything after they were done but they stayed so late and I was frustrated, I didn't possibly expect so much could have gone wrong. I am sure that some of you are thinking that I should have gone with TheWindowNerd. This may very well be true, but it's irrelevant and will not help me with this situation so I am looking for advice on how to proceed.

It would be about an 8 or 9 page novel to list all the things they did wrong, and how the owner has been awful in following up on this. I have been very patient for 6 months in giving him the opportunity to make things right.

What are my options here? Obviously I can and fully intend to leave his company with scathing reviews on every platform possible. What are my legal options? At a minimum I should be entitled to the entirety of the 3rd check still, for as far as I'm concerned the installation is not even complete yet. I also want to contact Okna to discuss how terrible I think this company and this man is. Who should I contact over there? Who can I contact in Harrisburg to file complaints about this company on a State level? Who else can I contact?

But one thing that I have a major problem with that I want to get other professional's input here is the use of RWD extender trim. It took me many years to warm up to replacing my old wood windows with vinyl windows. I just do not like the cheap look of them. So I went with what I thought was a high end window and a dealer that had very good reviews.

The reason he has so many good reviews is because he gets the customer to agree to leave a good review during the sale in exchange for a "discount" and then you are endlessly pressured to leave a good review after the job is done - I can't tell you how many times I was asked to leave a good review now by his employees, and here I am ready to sue the guy over his terrible job! How stupid can you be?

I asked the salesman exactly how these replacement windows would look installed and he told me that it would be installed behind my existing wood quarter round molding, so I was expecting this clean appearance. But it appears the lazy measurer measured everything too small! and now I have RWD extender trim on nearly every side of every window! Actually it's on around 20 of the 27 windows, and it's very inconsistent, on some windows it's on the sides, on some it's on the top, on some it's on all 3 sides (not the bottom of course). It just looks awful and cheapens the entire appearance of the window. The shade of white isn't even the same!

He tells me that it's widely accepted and used by the industry. Is this true? I would never EVER have hired this company had I known they would look this way. I've had a dozen window companies out here and they ALL told me the same thing, that the window would butt right up to my existing quarter round molding. This guy tells me it had to be measured that small so it would fit because the windows aren't square. That's bull crap! The quarter round molding is 1/2" and that leaves plenty of space to fit the window in place.

I am honestly not even sure if they sprayed foam around them like they said they would. It was drafty all winter! Literally drafty! My electric bill did not go down even one % from last year and I'm not talking about the price, I'm talking about the kilowatts per hour used. I went around with a thermal gun and the performance is terrible. These are Himark's for crying out loud! I would not recommend them to anyone. I think Okna is highly overrated here.

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Delaware Mike
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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#9 Post by Delaware Mike »

I'm sorry this outfit delivered subpar workmanship. There are a too many speed oriented alleged mechanics out there . Many times, janky capping, sloppy caulking, and other hack moves are considered "industry norms." Unfortunately, manufacturers don't really have a way to police what a particular dealer and their subs/employees are doing field wise unless unsatisfied homeowners doing exactly what your doing. I'll see decent work by the industry heavy hitters and total "Home Simpson" level butchering by the same outfit as there are so many installers out there with a wide range of what is quality and acceptable finish work.

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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#10 Post by Ricknez »

Why do you think okna is overrated? They have nothing to do with the install or the installation company. Is there a chance you misunderstood the scope of the work from the installers?
What window ( series ) did you go with ?

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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#11 Post by Windows on Washington »

Feel free to ping me direct and I will see if there is anything I can do to assist.

Enovotny@windowsonwashington.net

facesnorth
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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#12 Post by facesnorth »

Ricknez wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:46 am Why do you think okna is overrated? They have nothing to do with the install or the installation company. Is there a chance you misunderstood the scope of the work from the installers?
What window ( series ) did you go with ?
I don't think it's specific to Okna, I think perhaps it's an industry issue. The fact that I had a dozen window salesmen at my home since I purchased this place in 2015 and they all use the same tactics. Promising me a 40% reduction in energy usage. Promising the moon. Pressuring me to sign on the dotted line at that very moment. It's not natural. Ultimately I went with the one that I thought was the least bad of what I had come across. I really wanted to see some examples of their work, but there was no time.

Where Okna gets involved is the frequent price hikes. It's very expensive now for their windows, and the constant hikes creates a sense of urgency and pressure to sign the contract right now. Okna used to have appeal as a high performing window for a fair price. Now it costs as much as the windows that a few years ago I considered way overpriced and out of range. Part of this is all the supply chain issues from the pandemic but I also feel this is an industry problem.

I signed on the dotted line because I felt like I was getting a high quality product and I thought even for them to be a Himark dealer they had to have Okna's stamp of approval. I desperately tried to call Okna during this 3 day period to ask them for any feedback on this particular installer and also because I had questions on the differences between Himark and Starmark - their branding is also a point of confusion. It took me until well beyond the 3-day point just to be able to reach a person to speak with.

After the phone call, I decided that I would have preferred Starmark over Himark, however I decided I could live with Himark, and I was still certainly expecting a high quality window and installation, just perhaps a little thicker and less slick of an appearance than I would have preferred. So most of my frustration is certainly with the dealer. But I am also frustrated with Okna over this because I think they enable and perhaps even support these practices and a lot of the garbage that is spewed during the "initial window replacement in-house sales meeting".

They also seem very disorganized over there. Half the windows wouldn't stay open (the wider ones), they don't test that or account for that? The guys had to bring out a different mechanism which so far is working better, but I'm surprised that was even required to be done. Also the installers had damaged some of my SDL grids, and so the installers came out with grid replacements, heat gun and all that. He replaced the grid and it doesn't match the placement of the one behind it, so you can see the overlap. It also doesn't match the one underneath it. Seems like Okna should know how to handle something like this, and maybe there should be some math involved? Seems very disorganized to me.

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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#13 Post by Ricknez »

Okna is most certainly not involved because of “ price hikes”, that has absolutely nothing to do with your situation. Price hikes ( inflation) has plagued every industry the past few years, not just windows. Also higher interest rates make running a business more expensive. Again, nothing to do with Okna or any other window manufacturer for that matter.
Further, Okna nor any manufacturer supports or condones any practices, they are a manufacturer. Does GM support reckless driving ?
That being said, i do understand your frustration.

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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#14 Post by TommyJ »

I don't want to appear as an manufacturer's apologist here because they aren't perfect either, but all of what you are laying at their feet has nothing to do with them. Price hikes...well...welcome to the new economy. I have no fewer than 500 emails in my own industry.

They don't have anything to do with the pressure tactics downstream. Are there deadlines to lock in pricing in the current materials escalation...definitely. That said, they usually give the contractor about a month so any heavy pressure you were getting was from the contractor.

As a material manufacturer, nobody is going to comment on their end dealer and do you really not have a wealth of information at your fingertips to vet folks on? If you needed more time or weren't comfortable with your product decisions...why not call your contractor of choice? I am sure they would have gladly filled you in on the differences. Multiple brand names isn't something specific to any one brand. They all do that to assist in market saturation.

Sounds to me like make the balances weren't sized properly. Again...a human error as the system does tell you which one to use. But also an easily fixable one. Was it resolved? It take about 4 minutes to swap out a balance system...if that.

Gotta say...seems like most of your beef is with your installer/contractor and based on a sizing issue. If you can confidently demonstrate that they were sized improperly (not hard to do), I would make them replace the stops so you don't have the vinyl trim and offer you a definitive discount on the product. I agree with you that the vinyl trim is a band-aid in this case and if you pull the interior stops, you can see if they shorted the measurements. This isn't really a huge deal to figure out and again...not sure how any of this is the fault of the manufacturer.

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Re: Himark 1000 vs 800dx differences?

#15 Post by HomeSealed »

@facesnorth, I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties. Choosing a dealer with great reviews that sells a great product sets the odds for a successful project in your favor, but unfortunately nothing is ever guaranteed.

It does sound like there are some very legitimate concerns (mostly with the dealer/installation), and some others that could be, but would need further investigation.

With all of that said, you have several avenues of recourse available to you. You are clearly frustrated (and deservedly so), but I'd urge a more calculated approach here to try and get everything resolved properly and as expeditiously as possible.

I'd recommend the following steps (in this order): (also, it sounds like you may have already completed some of these steps, so disregard those as appropriate )

1) Notify the installation company of your ongoing concerns. Make sure that it is in writing, and specific. This is important in the event that litigation is needed later on.

2) If your initial complaint isn't getting a sufficient response, go up to the next level of management. I believe that you mentioned the owner being unresponsive, but it's possible that this owner may not be involved in the day to day. I always recommend going up the chain of command from the installer to a foreman, an installation manager or production manager, a GM, and finally the owner. I'm sure that sounds like way more trouble than it's worth but most companies don't have all of those positions, you should really only have to talk to three people at most.

3) If the company overall is taking a stance that they haven't done anything wrong and there is nothing left to fix, you can let them know again of your dissatisfaction and see if they are willing to find a compromise of some sort. This could include anything from some money off of your bill (or refunded if paid), up to refunding the job and returning the windows (very rare).

4) If after these steps you find that you are at an impasse with them, getting a third party involved would be wise. Get an unbiased inspection of the windows and installation and proceed accordingly based on those findings. NARI is a great resource if they have a chapter in your area, otherwise the BBB offers some mediation type services as well.

5) If at this point you have still not found a satisfactory solution, reviews, formal complaint filings, etc may be in order. I see folks jump to these a bit prematurely often and when that occurs, it really has the effect of dumping a can of gas on a fire that both sides are working to extinguish. When used at the right time, after other efforts have failed, they can be a powerful motivator.

6) Lastly, if #5 doesn't get the desired effect, and if your attorney believes that you have a strong case, then look at legal action. This has to be last, as despite how things should work out in theory where one party is right, the other is wrong, and the wrong one pays all legal fees, that generally is not the case in my experience. More often both sides line the pockets of some attorneys and get nothing more than a compromise that could have been found without that expense.

On one final note, the good news here is that you did pick a great product despite your experience so far, hopefully they can get this right for you. Windows are all independently tested and certified for thermal and structural performance, so if that seems to be lacking, once again it sounds like that is coming back to the installation and/or unrealistic expectations (40% energy savings is 100% BS).

If you had some pics to post up of the interior and exterior along with specific pics of the concerns, we could probably offer feedback there... I'd also recommend taking Windows on Washington up on his offer to connect. He may be able to help get things moving in the right direction for you.

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