Is this a red flag?

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Hoosier1991
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Is this a red flag?

#1 Post by Hoosier1991 »

We have 4 estimates from 3 companies to replace 17 windows. Currently have wood. Pretty basic windows. Nothing fancy/oversized. No major issues just time to upgrade.

I really liked a local company. But now I'm second guessing them because something seems off with numbers. All the window costs are similar. It's the install cost that seems overpriced. For a full frame install they are charging 18k. Where as the other companies are between 7k and 10k. They all say they are doing full frame replacements. But he says there is no way they can actually do a full frame at that cost. He highly recommends we do inserts instead because it would cut install costs in half. he says our frames are in really good shape and there is no reason to add extra work with removing siding. He also says we won't be able to reuse our interior trim on the wall because the sizing would be different. He says that's part of the extra expense of full frame.

I really liked this company. They have great reviews and a solid history. The other guys weren't terrible but they don't have as strong of recommendations and im not crazy about the idea that they subcontract the install. I'm gonna reach out to some other installers for type of install recommendations but the other installers in our area don't have brands I'd be willing to use so I feel like I'm stuck with these 3.

Are they trying to pull one over on me? Can you do a full frame replacement without removing or pulling back exterior vinyl siding? Can we do a full frame replacement without replacing our interior trim?

I'd appreciate advice from people who aren't trying to take my money.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

I am still trying to take your money.... :D :D

Answer to your question in order.

Is a full tear out that much more expensive by comparison...can be. Depending on trim, it can get up there. There is definitely more labor and consumables and time in that binary comparison between a pocket and insert job.

Sounds like he knows his craft if he's identified that the trim will be offset as well.

The "subcontractor" scare is overrated in many cases. Probably a higher percentage of install quality out of subs than there is out of employees. Just my observations.

If you are doing a full tear out of a wood window and not opening up the siding, you can introduce a leak pathway when not done properly. That is true.

I have seen full tear outs done without replacing the trim...but they overwhelmingly look like frankenstein'ed crap when done. The trim is nailed into the original wood frame. Pulling the frame disturbs the trim and downstream.

Why not just go insert? Is the fraction offset in glass a motivator? Cause it's usually not much.

Let's see some pictures of your windows.

masterext
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#3 Post by masterext »

There is no way a window company can do a 17 window "full frame/ full tear out" installation for $7- $10k, it's ludicrous. Any installer who claims they can should immediately be drug tested and given a full mental evaluation unless your home is in the Congo. Am I reading this wrong and they are charging an additional 7-10k for a full tear out? If so, that makes much more sense and I apologize for my unfiltered sarcasm.
.

Hoosier1991
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#4 Post by Hoosier1991 »

First quote 8k for full frame install

Second 9500 for full frame install

Third 18k for full frame install. The 3rd is the one stating we need new trim and to pull back the siding. The other 2 say it won't be needed.

These are just install cost and do not include window prices.

I have scheduled a 4th estimate. He agrees with the 3rd that a full frame would need new trim and would need siding pulled back.

I do think we are leaning towards insert now but because of the dramatic price difference we aren't sure who to believe.
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HomeSealed
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#5 Post by HomeSealed »

You are getting into some very murky waters here in analyzing the installation vs material costs. The reason being is that in the window replacement business, what is sold is an installed product in the vast majority of cases. Different companies have different ways of getting to their end price, some with greater markups on base product, some on upgrades, some on labor, some equal across the board. This is generally done to simplify things for both the company and the consumer with "standardized", simplified pricing, but there can be significant differences from one company to the next.

At the end of the day, the key comparison here will be comparing the bottom line price for the project (without regard for how it was calculated), and the scope of work that you are getting.

If the bottom line price is way higher for the one company in question, I'd start digging into the work scope. Another "murky topic" in this business is what a "full frame" install consists of. On one end you have a siding drop or cutback, removal of the old window with nail fain, install of the new window with nail fin, sill pan, flashing tape, new exterior trim, new interior woodwork (possibly prefinished), etc. On the other end of the spectrum, an "express" type install buzzes the old frame out and slides a new one in, caulked, and taillights. A difference of thousands on a house full of windows is very much justified in that case.

Hoosier1991
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#6 Post by Hoosier1991 »

@homesealed

If I'm understanding you correctly, a full frame replacement has different levels? Both remove the frame but and extensive frame replacement replaces all parts essentially while the other just removes the frame?

Ricknez
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#7 Post by Ricknez »

Im also confused here. 8k for a full frame install on 17 windows ? That makes zero sense to me.

Hoosier1991
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#8 Post by Hoosier1991 »

So the consensus is the first 2 quotes are way too cheap to actually be a full frame replacement? Or atleast one that's done right?

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#9 Post by Windows on Washington »

I think there are some mixed terms here. 8-10K for 17 full frame removals and replacements can't be done in today's materials costs.

Hoosier1991
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#10 Post by Hoosier1991 »

Windows on Washington wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:33 pm I think there are some mixed terms here. 8-10K for 17 full frame removals and replacements can't be done in today's materials costs.
That's what I'm trying to clarify. The first 2 quotes insist they are doing full frame replacements. They said they will remove the old frame down to the studs. But removing vinyl siding and replacing interior trim will not be necessary. He states we wouldn't use nail fins again, they will install through the frame and sill pans aren't used for windows so there is no replacing that. They do use flashing tape. This was his exact response to my questions about his full frame replacement.

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Delaware Mike
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#11 Post by Delaware Mike »

Full frame window replacements still get a pan, but it's pan flashing butyl membrane that covers the rough sill, up the side of the jacks 6", and lipped over the face of the sill area sheathing. We still call it a pan but differs from an entry door or patio slider pan which is typically field fabricated aluminum with tape here and there or a composite PVC like pan.

Personally, my full frame installs are new interior trim casings, factory applied jamb extensions, and a nailing flange. Sounds like they have their own "hybrid" method going on. Trying not to judge.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Is this a red flag?

#12 Post by HomeSealed »

Hoosier1991 wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 1:29 pm @homesealed

If I'm understanding you correctly, a full frame replacement has different levels? Both remove the frame but and extensive frame replacement replaces all parts essentially while the other just removes the frame?
Bingo! ... Mostly.

A "full frame replacement" really just means that the old frame is coming out and it will not be a "pocket" install. There are varying methods and levels to how that happens, and more importantly how the new window is installed. The lowest level is actually less work than a pocket install in many cases, where the highest level can add days of additional work as well of thousands in additional material (interior woodwork, exterior trim boards, etc).
Again, it's very important to ensure that you are looking at apples to apples methods. A good starting point will be whether or not the new window will be installed with nail fin. It sounds like the higher priced guy is including that (others are not), and he's proposing the more comprehensive (and justifiably more expensive) method of installation.

Regarding the pricing part, I think that there is still some confusion amongst all of us on what that includes. The OP did state:
These are just install cost and do not include window prices.

I'll reiterate my advice above, which is that analysis of the labor costs alone may be very flawed as the pricing structure from one company to the next can vary wildly. Comparing the fully installed product price on the bottom line of each quote is the proper way to compare. It will probably end up with the same order from highest to lowest, but could possibly close the gap to some degree.

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