research for all (read before you buy)

[kcolney]

Ok this is about 6 days of research online at this and other boards, calling various companys and installers. This is my experience and will, more than likely, tick people off in the industry but as this is a consumer board
OH WELL!

If you have not figured out yet this window replacement thing is a total racket that is just below used cars sales, if you don't do your research you Will get taken! for instance. Contractor Cost for vinyl replacement windows is about 50% to 40% less than what you will pay if you dont research your cost.

I'm looking at 19 big windows replaced and received 3 quotes for 12k, 10.5k, and 9.8k installed. I went to the wholesaler for a quality window the (alside sheffeld or Revere Soverign) and received a total quote for the contractor cost of the windows to be around $4500 with tax.

I found that the most important thing is installation so choose wisely. good installation can be had for $60-$100 a hole depending on where you live. Check your install companies warranty cause it may differ from the window warranty. (Some companies say you must use so-n-so to install or the install warranty is void)

So no my total bill is $4500 for the windows and $1900 for the install job...$6400 a far scream from 12k this really made me angry! I called up the most qualified installer that gave me a quote and faxed him my research and he was silent for 30 seconds on the phone and then agreed to the job for an extra 15% which i felt was fair.

10.5k down to $7300 and i get what i feel is the best install team with lifetime warranty.

window choices ( my opinions)

schuco great windows $$$$$$$
Simonton 9800 very good $$$$$
simondton 5500 very good $$$$
Alside Sheffiled very good $$$$
Revere Soverign same as sheffield
Marvin fiberglass great window $$$$$$$
Alside Excalibur above average $$$

did not look at Pella and Anderson because there overhead and advertising is more than likely 3x what the others are and you will pay for that in the window.

decisions: the window warrantee, installation warranty check all the discussion forums for quality and make a good choice based upon your budget. AND HAGGLE cause your prob getting a 80% to 100% markup on your quotes.

hope this helps all

[randy]

As someone "in the industry", let me be the first to say, that I am not the least bit ticked off by your post. In fact, I think it is excellent advice for anyone who:

1) has never owned a business

2) purchases their vehicles from an auto auction rather than a dealership

3) purchases their computers and televisions from the home shopping network

4) haggles over the price of a tire rotation at Wal Mart

5) regularly complains about a restaurant meal just to get it discounted

6) never sees as movie unless it is showing at the dollar theatre - and then sneaks in his own popcorn and coke

I appreciate the fact that you have given others, who share your mentality, a reason not to bother those of us who prefer to serve homeowners who value their homes, appreciate professional service, and understand that a business must be profitable to remain in business. So, I'm sure I speak for many here, when I say, once again, thank-you.

[Oberon]

Six whole days of research?

With that sort of background I am surprised that the various window companies aren't knocking at your door and offering huge consulting fees.

[FenEx]

I've only got about four days of research under my belt... and I am so confused already. The initial post has inspired me to drive an additional 25 miles to save 5 cents on an apple. I bet I can get another penny or two out of those capitalist bastards! I'll keep ya'll posted!

[kcolney]

Please notice that most of these responses are from industry folks posting that my research is bull and that I dont have a clue what I'm talking about or I'm getting crap windows and am a cheapo guy not willing to spend an extra dime. This is because i am taking a HUGE chunk of $$$ out of there profit by posting this (above)info.

1 my price quotes are direct from factory wholesaler..i have the letter head and the price in ink.

2 I have installation quotes from 3 different installers for 12k 10k and 8k or there abouts verses what i know to be facts in my area for good install prices per window.

3 I am a consumer not cheap skate...what i said above is reality not the fantasy that these "crooks" want to believe and charge people. (not all but some)

4 i am buying windows that several of the above have stated as decent windows in other posts but now... I have no idea what i'm talking about and now I am cheap. Funny How that happens when you report information that keeps money in your pocket not in theirs??

If my research helps the consumer look around and find substantial savings up to 100% then so be it. Take this information or dont, but My numbers are true and I have the paper trail to back it up. As for the opinion of the window quality take it or leave it, it's just an opinion...but an informed opinion. I can find 30 or more posts on this site alone from industry "experts" and sales people backing up my list and confirming my choices and ratings. But again its just an opinion do your own research.

19 (74x36)(50x36) (24x36) installed for $7500 and it ain't window world either!!!

so you industry guys go right ahead and beat me up, some of you, your secret is out.

By the way, I'm all for individual business and have one of my own. But you will excuse me for not caring about yours if you charge your customers 100% profit or 85% or even 60%.
THAT'S CALLED RIP OFF! Maybe thats why some business' are closing.

And i love the post concerning Walmart. If I am going to buy a toaster, or some motor oil, or even some DVD's Yeah I go to Walmart because its the same product just cheaper for me to buy it there AND THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. One guy wants to charge me 12k the other does it with the same product for $7500 you be the judge.

[randy]

Just about everyone shops at Wal Mart for something. My comment had to do with HAGGLING OVER PRICE at Wal Mart. (Obviously your business must not require reading skills.)

Let me guess; your "business" is extremely successful, you live in a huge home, and have lots of money. Riiiiiiight.

One last thing. I resent your "crook" comment. I may be a bad businessman, since dispensing free advice here is very unprofitable. I may even be a bad father and husband, since spending time here takes away from time with my family. But I am no crook.

[staysail]

Contractor Cost for vinyl replacement windows is about 50% to 40% less than what you will pay if you dont research your cost.

I'm looking at 19 big windows replaced and received 3 quotes for 12k, 10.5k, and 9.8k installed. I went to the wholesaler for a quality Forwindow the (alside sheffeld or Revere Soverign) and received a total quote for the contractor cost of the windows to be around $4500 with tax.

I found that the most important thing is installation so choose wisely. good installation can be had for $60-$100 a hole depending on where you live. Check your install companies warranty cause it may differ from the window warranty. (Some companies say you must use so-n-so to install or the install warranty is void)

So no my total bill is $4500 for the windows and $1900 for the install job...$6400 a far scream from 12k this really made me angry! I called up the most qualified installer that gave me a quote and faxed him my research and he was silent for 30 seconds on the phone and then agreed to the job for an extra 15% which i felt was fair.

l

I did pretty much the same thing: quotes from businesses and Distributor and With Installation the complete job is 200 % of the cost of the windows alone in some cases.
Here what I posted yesterday in answer to another estimate:

I would stay as far as I can from HD install... unless you want to go into a never ending nightmare.
Lowe's Pella is a Low End grade (made by a Company recently bought by Pella: VIKING.)
I had estimates for 11 double hung windows (reflections by Simonton):

1- 101 UI
1- 106 UI
4- 87 UI
1- 80 UI
1- 89 UI
2- 63 UI
1- 99 UI

UI (United Inch) = total Width + hight

Quote from Lowe's (Pella/Viking Thermastar): $2,200 + installation $109 per window +$100 permit.= $3,499.. Patio door $446 (no Low-e/argon) +$395 installation
Quote from HD $ 7,500 (Simonton equivalent to 5500 Series)- Patio door Same brand: $2,200
Quote from local Business: $5,200 (simonton 5500) - Patio door Simonton reflections : $:1,300
Quote from dealer/distributor (no installation): $3,000. Patio Door Simonton Reflections: $998 +Tax

With the $5,200 quote the installation comes to 2200/11 = $200 install per window!

I do not know if I will be able to find a good installer who will be happy with only $100 (Lowe's charges $109 and probably pays the subcontractor only $50-$60).
If anybody knows a good installer in the Tampa Bay area... please let me know.

I am even willing to exchange service with an out of state installer: (Condo 1300 sq.ft for a month, or 2 *2 weeks stays at different dates)!
For the Installation of:
11 double hung windows and 4 patio sliding doors... all Simonton Reflections 5500 in a Single Home not the Condo (25 miles apart!)

PS: I wouldn't call the window business a racket ... they are just trying to make a decent living... besides anybody can go into that business if he /she wishes - wants!
I don't think one will become millionaire doing it !

Home Depot is The worst racket ever in all the installs they do: HIGHEST PRICE Anywhere and Lowest quality workmanship! They bs you with things like:
- Peace of mind (i don't think they know what that means)
- Life time warranty ( did you ever try to service anything you bought from them? Good luck!
- Try to get a straight answer from them!

[Window4U (IL)]

If you have not figured out yet this window replacement thing is a total racket that is just below used cars sales, if you don't do your research you Will get taken! for instance. Contractor Cost for vinyl replacement windows is about 50% to 40% less than what you will pay if you dont research your cost.
I'm looking at 19 big windows replaced and received 3 quotes for 12k, 10.5k, and 9.8k installed. I went to the wholesaler for a quality window the (alside sheffeld or Revere Soverign) and received a total quote for the contractor cost of the windows to be around $4500 with tax.

Like all types of businesses, there will always be a few bad apples who will try to gouge the consumer. That said, none of your quotes fall into the category of being out of line for a legitimate window company who provides competent installation and service. I also have no problem with a homeowner being his own contractor to save money. Just be aware of the many things that can go wrong and be prepared.


Most consumers realize that installed products in the construction business are roughly half product cost and half accessories, coil, caulk, insulation, lumber, trim, labor, and overhead to keep the doors open. This is true in siding, roofs, cabinets, floors, bathrooms or any other project you hire a contractor to do. It's no secret, nor is it something that anyone is trying to hide. The cost of doing business is what it is.

Your statement that marking up the product makes a contractor a "crook" is insulting and shows you know nothing of the costs involved in running a legitimate business. Real companies that pay workers above the table pays taxes, workmen's comp, liability insurance, pay to have a showroom for customers to visit, a staff to answer the phones, do the billing and paperwork, and to service the products when needed. Add to that the gasoline, vehicles, vehicle insurance, building permits, contractor's licenses and bonds in almost every town you work, state licensing, phone book, and newspaper advertising, Spring & Fall Home Shows($3000-$4000 each), ...the list of expenses goes on and on and on.....it's never ending. All this we pay to run a legitimate business, earn a modest living, and have a company that will be around for years to come so that when our customers need to call for service or parts we will be there to take care of them.

Now you on the other hand are going to pay an installer who I'll bet money has none of these expenses and who works under the table, definitely has no workmen's comp, maybe no liability insurance, and for sure pays no taxes on the work he's going to do for you. It's tax-free side money for him.....and lot's of installers do it.
Now ....who's the one who is engaging in shady dealings and promoting the seamy side of this so called "Racket", and who are the ones making an honest living and giving their customers professional service and installation?

One more thing... Who's going to do your service calls, replace parts, and readjust your windows in the future? What if as time goes by you realize you've got a horrible installation? Your installer will be long gone and his cash spent. With the decision to be your own contractor, all this falls on you and only you.

[crankthisout]

I agree. I recently found out that Nike's cost for making an athletic shoe is about $4. Nike wanted $80 for the shoe.

You know what I did?

I went down to the local shoemaker and he ..........

I went down to my local pizzaria and I checked the prices out for a large 14" with cheese, sauce, and peppenoni. You know what they wanted to charge me for this? $17.99. They must be nuts. I found out the ingredients would be about $3.45 from the guys who make the pizzas.

I went to their local competitor, presented this information, and said I wanted the pizza for $3.95 (15% more) and he .....

In other words, any legitimate business cannot possibly remain in business with the markups your presenting. Read any business book and you find out that an average business expense of advertising alone is 10% of their yearly profits not to mention the other costs listed above. They would have to sell hundreds of thousands of pizzas to make this happen.

Good luck. Tell us how everything worked out for you.

[kcolney]

ok to those of you not beings "crooks" to the public sorry!

but I see no need what so ever to charge 100% profit for windows. AND Please dont cry about the poor contractors that cant make a living running his/her own business. The huge house house I live in and the large sums of money are not happening here. Thats are down the street at the guy that has his own contracting business.

Whats the largest contracting business in the country..replacement windows and vinyl siding why? because the profit margin is the highest for the contractor. Everyone that can swing a hammer is now a window installer/vinyl siding expert. ( i have 4 pages of contractors/installers in my area yellow pages).

""Just about everyone shops at Wal Mart for something. My comment had to do with HAGGLING OVER PRICE at Wal Mart. (Obviously your business must not require reading skills.) ""

And if I went to walmart to buy a dvd and it was $50 damn right I'd scream and attempt to haggle...which is the point you don't seem to understand. If you go back and read slowly, i think you'll find I did'nt say anything about haggling at Walmart but that i haggled with the contractor charging me 70% over my research costs. (Obviously YOUR business must not require reading skills.) ""

as I said: my research, use or don't, just don't be a "sucker born every minute"

[kcolney]

workmen's comp, liability insurance, pay to have a showroom for customers to visit, a staff to answer the phones, do the billing and paperwork, and to service the products when needed. Add to that the gasoline, vehicles, vehicle insurance, building permits, contractor's licenses and bonds in almost every town you work, state licensing, phone book, and newspaper advertising, Spring & Fall Home Shows($3000-$4000 each), ...the list of expenses goes on and on and on


ok but lets not forget that almost all of these costs are tax deductable as the cost of doing business. This stuff you claim is so taxing to your business so that you justify huge profits is taken off the books at the end of the year as business expenses. You get a significant portion back or at least placed against your overall taxes.

still does'nt justify 100% profit in my book

[riddlewh]

but I see no need what so ever to charge 100% profit for windows.

ok but lets not forget that almost all of these costs are tax deductable as the cost of doing business.

Failed business school or never bothered going?

[JScott]

Please tell us how much to charge for our service?

[FenEx]

Hmmm.... interesting business model. At the 15% margin, it's obviously not going to cover advertising (or many other necessities), so let's assume your contractor is even lucky enough to get two jobs your size per week. That would be $960 each or $1,920 per week, times 48 workable weeks per year (allowing for vacations and weather), $92,160/yr. Not bad. Oh... we forgot to pay the receptionist/office manager/book keeper (deduct 25k) and the rent for a small office (deduct 12k), and one avg. salesman (deduct 50k), and the utilities (deduct 4k), and insurances (deduct 3k), and we won't even look at the laundry list of other expenses provided above. This leaves about -$1,840 for the owner and company to split before taxes. Oh wait... don't have to pay taxes on a negative income... so there's a perk. Gotta let the salesman go, now the owner has $48,160 to split with the company (About $34k after taxes). Realistically, he might actually only make about half of this amount to even keep his buisness afloat and operational.

The next time you shop in Walmart, look for your contractor as he is probably working there nights and weekends to make ends meet, providing he's not out on a sales call. Whoops... he was so tired he fell off a ladder at your house, and was too tight this month to pay the Insurance bill. Are you in good hands?

Why then would the contractor YOU selected work for this wage? You said it best, "Everyone that can swing a hammer is now a window installer/vinyl siding expert." You and other's that share your views keep them in the marketplace, and then complain and wonder why the industry has such a poor reputation. You are not solving the industry's problems with your views here, quite frankly, you are adding to them. Those that provide for their employees and installers to be better educated & trained, offer you the security of proper liability and WC, pay legitimate taxes and wish to raise the bar for the industry are now referred to as the "Crooks"? Unbelievable.

[researcher]

I fail to see a problem with the window business; it is free enterprise with it's inherent risks. Having your own business gives one the right to run it as they wish. There are many windows businesses to choose from and that choice lay in the hands of the consumer.

If one wants to be there own contractor instead, that again one's choice.