nature of the beast

[puffkit]

this is my first experience buying windows and i have to admit the replacement window industry is bizarre.

it seems there are two sides of the fence. on one side you have every contractor offering THEIR great low/mid grade replacement vinyl window (atrium, alside, ideal, thermal industries, etc) that they buy direct (i.e. higher profit margin) and they have been installing for 20 years and love and have no problems with and guarantee and so on and so on. no disrespect for some of these may be nice windows but i picture a window factory somewhere the size of rhode island stamping out these windows and workers applying each separate designated name brand sticker at the end of the line. i realize these windows do have different features but does it make a difference? aren't they all in the same ballpark? the problem then for the consumer is that it's hard to find information on these windows. names and models and styles are convoluted. it's sort of like going car shopping and there are the name brands (honda, ford, nissan) but there are also generic dealerships who make lots of models that maybe have the same features or parts as a honda or vw but you just can't quite tell....and you may not find out until 10 years later.

the other side are the name brands (pella, simonton, sunrise, andersen) that you may or may not pay a bit more for but you get a company that has been making these same windows for years with an extensive history, certifications, service records, authorized dealers....you get my point.

now for me if i'm going to spend thousands for windows and i can have the full disclosure windows with an extensive history for that specific window or i can choose what's behind door #1 (contractors special) it's no contest.

i hope this doesn't offend any window guys but as my first experience with this industry i find it quite odd.

[Windows on Washington]

The reality of the situation is that most contractors do not have a great grasp on what makes a good window. You will get a "deer in the headlights" look if you ask most contractors (excluding the pros from this board) about Design Pressure, Air infiltration, AAMA test report, etc, etc, etc.

That is not to infer that they could not successfully install a window in a functional format, most can. I could walk most customers through installing a window over the phone and they would do a workable version of the install. The skill is in the finishing details and the techniques used. Much like the window choices, the true measure of the product is in the fine details.

Of the 4 windows brands that you mention in the first paragraph, all of them make a suitable product inside that brand. The problem is that most contractors, similar to builders, would rather save $15 per window an install the lesser product to add margin to the project. Also inside those 4 brands are some very substandard lines.

All of the brands that you mention above are also sold through distributorship (i.e. building supply houses) so it has a lot to do with what is available and what kind of price they get on the product.

I think the key in all things is for the customer to attempt to educate themselves on any major buying decision as opposed to taking any contractor's word as the singular authority on the situation.

[GlazedAndConfuzed]

After my experience picking out a window I came to the following conclusion.
My theory is that the typical installer will have an EXCLUSIVE window that they push that they claim is the greatest window ever made.
Because they sell those windows exclusively they get a special discount on them and their margin goes way up. When they sell a certain amount they probably get a better discount as well as a special customer service agreement.

The true test of quality comes years after installation, however, and then you are dealing direct with the manufacturer. This is where, I believe, companies like Simonton have a better reputation than others. Less problems, and better support when you have problems.

The car analogy is a great one. My car is the best one ever because it serves its purpose and I like the way it looks. I like my car even more because it is paid off and gets great gas mileage. Pick the car you want before going to the dealership.

Pick the window first and then choose the installer. Don’t let yourself be *sold* on anything you have to live with.

[Windows on Washington]

After my experience picking out a window I came to the following conclusion.
My theory is that the typical installer will have an EXCLUSIVE window that they push that they claim is the greatest window ever made.
Because they sell those windows exclusively they get a special discount on them and their margin goes way up. When they sell a certain amount they probably get a better discount as well as a special customer service agreement.

The true test of quality comes years after installation, however, and then you are dealing direct with the manufacturer. This is where, I believe, companies like Simonton have a better reputation than others. Less problems, and better support when you have problems.

The car analogy is a great one. My car is the best one ever because it serves its purpose and I like the way it looks. I like my car even more because it is paid off and gets great gas mileage. Pick the car you want before going to the dealership.

Pick the window first and then choose the installer. Don’t let yourself be *sold* on anything you have to live with.

Glazed an Confuzed,

You assertions largely inaccurate and there is zero component of your argument that acknowledges the fact that an installer might have come to a decision present a product because of the fact that its performance is superior to other windows.

The purchase prices on windows are only minimally affected by the volumes that most installation companies purchase at. If you are purchasing product in the kind of volumes that a franchise like Window World does, there are significant discounts as a result of that type of bulk purchasing. Window World is the single largest window installation company in the US and will therefore have some negotiated amount off of their purchase price.

The contractors that are contributors to this board purchase and install products that they have a good working sample of the Quality Control and Quality Assurance as well as have the performance criteria to back up their claims. That is while you will consistently hear the board professionals on here recommend brands that we know to be solid products in terms of performance and quality.

By your product selection criteria, a new window on the marketplace that is an excellent performer should be ignored because it does not have the track record of a longer tenured window. I certainly believe that track record is a factor to consider but that is only a part of the evaluation criteria in my estimation.

The Simonton window is certainly one of those windows that has solid performance data and a good history of quality. It is not the only window that fits that criteria and there are quite a few other that have similar, in some cases, better performance.

[GlazedAndConfuzed]

Well, of the installers I talked to one claimed that MI windows were the absolute BEST window ever made. Another one swore that BF Rich were the best window ever made. Both had good arguments why they felt that way and may have really believed it.

Are you saying that installers who have an exclusive window are not getting a better price because of the fact that they sell only that window?

[Windows on Washington]

They may in fact be getting a slightly better price on the window that they commit too, however, the difference is usually very slight and especially considering that most people are not purchasing in the types of volume that legitimize heavy discounts.

The manufacturers know exactly what their margins are and are not giving it away because someone promises them their business.

In regards to what your previously contractors presented, please reference my earlier remarks:

I think the key in all things is for the customer to attempt to educate themselves on any major buying decision as opposed to taking any contractor's word as the singular authority on the situation.

You are your own best resource in this case and are going to be ultimately responsible for making sure you are getting a good product.

[canuck]

MI is not an exclusive product and i find it hard to believe that someone would say its a good window and still be able to keep a straight face.

[HomeSealed]

MI is not an exclusive product and i find it hard to believe that someone would say its a good window and still be able to keep a straight face.

Actually MI does offer a couple "exclusives", but they are just re-labeled 1650's .

[SuperiorW&D]

this is my first experience buying windows and i have to admit the replacement window industry is bizarre.

it seems there are two sides of the fence. on one side you have every contractor offering THEIR great low/mid grade replacement vinyl window (atrium, alside, ideal, thermal industries, etc) that they buy direct (i.e. higher profit margin) and they have been installing for 20 years and love and have no problems with and guarantee and so on and so on.

I would "generally" give the dealer/installer the benefit of the doubt that he chose his ONE window based on his perception of quality instead of profit margin. Most people don't like to sell products that fail. That just costs them money.

Perception is reality.

I do agree that most dealers/installers only carry one brand and push it. I find that frustrating too. That is why I carry 10 different brands of windows. One size does NOT fit all. It's harder to train my people, but my customers appreciate the choices.

[Firebrand]

Puff & Glazed,

I find this forum remarkably like the "what's the best mattress" forum that I became a junkie on a few years back. I learned a great deal from posts by helpful pros there like I have learned here about windows and their manufacturers from WoW, HomeSealed, canuck, skydawggy, anthony, randy, SuperiorW&D, and others at the moment forgotten. I think the mattress industry is like window business in leaving the uninformed public mystified as to what they are buying and its quality. It's not a purchase made very often--we buy cars more frequently I suspect, and cars are sold more on sex appeal than either mattresses or windows.

So I took the advice of many pros and talked to a lot of window people--and as you point out, most all have their favorite brand, and many don't have the slightest clue what the ratings really mean. I never found one locally who carried several brands--or at least a range of brands including some I was looking for via my "schoolin'" on this forum. To me, that's pretty fishy. I found a wholesale dealer just beginning to carry a brand generally well-thought of by our pros, and for my involvement and, frankly, aggravation in making a decision, was able to upgrade cosmetically, since I've cut out the salesman. Through the dealer, I've found someone I think and hope can do a great install, but who truly is the deer in the headlights when it comes to the AI, U factor, and other numbers.

Time will tell how my decision works out, but I think WoW's quote is great and exactly what I tried to do:

I think the key in all things is for the customer to attempt to educate themselves on any major buying decision as opposed to taking any contractor's word as the singular authority on the situation.

[shamu]

If you think it is bizarre now you should have tried buying windows 10-15 years ago. No point of reference for consumers at all. That is why NFRC ratings were established in an attempt to put everyone on the same page when comparing window performance. There were also literally thousands of more vinyl window "fabricators" out there. Most have gone out of business, some were gobbled up by larger companies.

IMO the window business is no different than the auto industry or appliances and electronics. Chevrolet/GMC, Ford/Mercury, Whirlpool/Frigidaire etc. Within all of the brands many different levels of price points and options available. Most retailers have either multiple locations where they sell different brands or offer multiple brands at the same locations. You wouldn't expect to go to a Ford dealership to buy a Chevy. Of course they are going to try and convince consumers that their products are the best. Same with windows, a Simonton dealer (or a loyal contractor) is not going to tell you about the deficiencies of that product and why another window is better. They will accentuate the strongest features of their products and the weak points of their competition. Most people I know in the business have more than one manufacturer available to them, either directly or through a distributor or wholesaler, but typically do have a favorite for one reason or another.

The difference, and I think most frustrating part of buying replacement windows, is homeowners can't just go to a location and look at different windows side by side and get a firm price without someone coming to their home to look at their windows and the scope of the project. And that usually requires sitting through presentation after presentation and then trying to decifer the spin of every salesperson.