Re: install review

[HomeSealed]

Best thing to do at this point is to get together with the dealer, go over the pros and cons of each install style (including cost and clarification on which was quoted in the first place), and then decide which you prefer.

[masterext]

My sentiments exactly, talk to the dealer and ask about the Extra Cost associated with performing the install according to your criteria. Hard to quantify how much of an upcharge its going to be without seeing the job up close. There will definitely be an upcharge though.

[Guy]

Unfortunately our standards of an install has changed. New technology gives us a better window. Codes have changed the way we install products, and that American Pride on Quality Craftsmanship in most cases, is non existent. Now add the Energy Efficiency to all that! Plus the true facts that we in the Northland install windows much differently than Randy in Texas. I've been involved in so many court battles either as a Proffesional representing someone to saving my own rear end.
For the past five years we have pushed our practices higher than ever. There's no way on Gods green earth that I will install any window as explained above. I will walk away. I think most disgruntled homeowners get caught up in the terms we use in the industry. We see one thing while the others see another.
In this area any window being replaced is getting a replacement window. There are different types of applications. Full Frame, Pocket or Insert are the two ways we do it today. If I install a full frame it's coming with a fin and all the fixings. I cut back siding if needed or pull siding. I've been doing this long enough to know I have to CMA! I get top dollar for my installs but I never have an issue. I've seen way to many companies disappear because the use that Cut & Paste method. I sleep well at night and never have a leaker. But I'm hanging up my spurs after this year. This old body has been beat bad! As installers we owe it to our customers to give them the best we can offer. Here in the Northland we have to do it the best way possible. Otherwise it will fail! Just make sure everyone's on the same page. Don't be afraid to ask questions!!

[TheWindowNerd]

Guy,
I hear ya.
What would you do if you have masonry pushed right against the frame of a flanged vinyl or aluminum prime?

By the way congrats on being able to retire.

[masterext]

Retirement isnt in my vocabulary. I would be bored to death even at 90 if i had nothing to challenge me or to focus on. I guess talk to me when im 90. Lol

[Guy]

I have no choice in my retiring. Both my shoulders are like a 95 year old mans. Bone on bone. I won't really retire, I'm only 54. But I'll get into the educational side or build a couple houses. I could never sit at the house. Everytime I do a wall comes down or I tear something apart.

Anthony, if I have a concrete opening it just depends on the wall construction. If it's a block wall I have no problem. If it's a brick face in bid it with a cut back of the brick. The windows I use have the attached Brickmould. On the Brickmould it has a removable cover to install the fasteners. Then you snap the covers over the fasteners to make it look original. I usually just cut the brick back 1 1/2" on each side. They turn out awesome every time. We have cities that mandate bricks removal before we can replace a window! I'm just tired of all the politics in our industry. All these inspectors throwing their weight around. It just seems like the government is trying to shut down all us little guys. There's always some new fee or education we're forced to dump our money on. This Winter up here this year has been the worst I can remember. I'd rather go ice fishing! I'll find something to do! Maybe I'll hang out here and see how long it takes for me to get frustrated.

[toddinmn]

This would be a great time to pull all the siding and add house wrap or a even add foam. Might be cost prohibited depending on size of house but might be worth looking to.

[rl-27]

Meeting with the dealer owner this week. They still want the job, and it will be their first in our subdivision with about 300 homes of the same install all around. Pa construction standards were unified in 2007, so every house built after that was house wrapped, etc. The builder is still around, so maybe I'll see if they have any active sites and look at the current install just for fun.

I also confirmed the current windows are Dove 5000 circa 2003, but they are out of business anyway. I can't find the specs anywhere online for comparison. I know they leak like a sieve. The slider is a Simonton, but the seal in the sliding door failed about 6 years ago.

[rl-27]

So, in preparation for my meeting with the owner of the company, I was thinking this through more and more. I am thinking they are going to say it can't be done but a big advantage, in my mind, is that I have 2x6 wallls and existing new construction windows. The interior jambs are painted pine, 4 3/4 wide. (The ones I checked anyway) I measured 3 inches from the wood jamb to the inside of the screen track, approx. 3 5/8 to outside of the screen track (overall window width). It appeared with the built in J-channel, the window projects 1 3/4 out from the sheathing.

Let me know if this makes sense............there is 1/2 inch sheathing (pretty sure) 5 1/2 inch framing, then 1/2 drywall. Obviously the jamb is set to the drywall, and with it being 4 3/4 that leaves.........math drumroll, please......... 1 3/4 for the new window to set inside the RO, with any remaining to project outside the sheathing again. If the okna's are 3 1/2 wide or as I measured mine as 3 5/8, that would allow for the same 1 3/4 projection outside the sheathing and the ability not to have to modify the jambs. (In a perfect world, I know) But wouldn't this be as close to a one to one exchange you could get? So, there should only be the added laber for the cutout of the siding and trimming. Perhaps I am wrong, but I will wait for confirmation!!!

Another issue I that found I need to address is that the specs that were quoted only line up to the okna insultec 500 deluxe on the NFRC product page. If this is the case, $865/opening is way more than sufficient for a full replacement install. I also noted in other posts the 500 can be made with a nailing flange as the 5500 model.

1- 36 x 60 twin (2 windows at that size)
4- 36 x 60
1- 32 x 36
1- 36x 36
2- 36 x 66 (was oriel, not per the new quote)
1- 36 x 48

11 total, plus the slider.

Sizes from the labels in the top of the existing windows.

Specs as previously posted.

[Delaware Mike]

The total jamb depth of virtually all replacement windows is 3.25". This is to accommodate a typical pocket installation in which the replacement window will fit within the confines of the framing of the original wood window and wall. New construction vinyl with it's nailing flange will have slightly more of the window projecting outwards due to the fin/flange sitting on the sheathing.

I don't have a sample or corner cut of the OKNA 550dx in front of me to give exact dimensions right now, however I did grab a Sunrise Vanguard corner cut with the welded integral nailing flange. The inside dimension from the interior face of the nailing flange to the inside face of the window on this product is just shy of 2.25". The built in j-channel has a throat width of 3/4". Unless you are installing new siding you don't really want the built in j-channel as it's throat depth is always 3/4" plus the added pain of weld flash in the corners which should be shaved down with a Multimaster type tool. Many siding crews want more of a 1" face to the j-channel.

Since OKNA doesn't make an new construction integral flanged window without a built in j-channel, you would have to plan on placing something like a 5/4" trim board atop the flange and sheathing as a 3/4" board would' have the proper depth in my opinion. The current j-channel throat spacing would be just empty space making the cut back wider in regards the siding. This is why I use the a product with a integral flange without a built in j-channel on these types of new construction/retrofit hybrid installs in which the siding either stays in place or gets temporally dropped and reinstalled.

In regards to an exterior trim board that will get capped or be from PVC variety. I would run the board through my table saw on the back edge and set the blade to a depth that matches the width of the nailing flange. In the case of my Sunrise sample, I'd set the height of the blade just over 2". The face of the board would run along the fence and just pull off slightly under the width of the blade which would be similar to the thickness of the nailing flange. This would allow the trim board to lie more flat to the sheathing and not have a "catty wampus" tilt to it once installed.

I did a very large project with the OKNA 550dx new construction windows last year so I'm very familiar with this model and it's design. I did all new interior jamb extensions and trim on this particular project, however I'm to understand that you would like to keep yours which for me would be no problem. With you installers it may be a problem because the chance that the offset of the flange to interior face depth is most likely not going to be the same as the OKNA's. I've simple cut the jamb extensions in place with a combination of a circular saw and Multimaster. It's messy and precision layout and cuts must be utilized. Lot's of sawdust coming in the house. After dry fitting the frame without sashes for proper fit, we will then go through all the proper flashing applications regarding the sill and back sealing of the flange included setting the new window into a wet bed of spray foam since once the window sets into the rough opening you will have no way to insulate it since there is jamb extensions and trim in the way.

Re-trimming the window would be nice and the 100% correct way, but most folks aren't allowing for that in their budget. Some shoe molding is applied atop the jamb extensions to hide the cut back. We remove the stool cap and do a more precision rip in the table saw too as cutting in place doesn't make sense as the sill flashing is much better applied with the stool's removal. Lot of extra work compared to a fin cut type of install.

[rl-27]

Unless given the option to cancel again this week by the owner, I think I'm stuck with where I am at on all details. I'm hoping for some type of modification or some other added value cause I feel mislead, completely.

[masterext]

I obviously wasnt there so i cant be 100% sure but i highly doubt the company did anything unethical. All of these extra installation details would definitely be an added cost and there is no way a company would forget to put those items in a written contract.

[rl-27]

Just to add to my previous postings: I explained my issues of the initial builder install and the first salesman looked at everything and gave me a quote. In my mind, the "issue" occurred because I had the salesman presentation but then I contacted Okna directly about a week later and they sent me back to the same dealer. The dealer manager came out and I started at 675.00 and he said that was not possible. For my baseline, I already had the soft lite quote of 905.00 for imperial LS full tear out.

I fully expected their quote to include a full tear out since the current install is plainly wrong. The "details" of the contract were not really stated except that there were check boxes saying, install windows......yes, wrap and cap......yes.....remove old windows.......yes. Nothing about a pocket install for that matter, either. The real details of the install occurred after the right to cancel and the installer came for the final measurement. I became upset after he explained their plan for the install. I reiterated my concerns and even showed him the pics from when the house was built......no house wrap, no flashing, no tape. He apparently did not know about these concerns and was not prepared to address them......

They are working with me so far, so hopefully when I meet with the owner, this will be fully resolved to the benefit of both of us. I am not interested in overpaying and I want them installed properly and to the best practice for my house. I have gathered that a lot of the installers here would not do a pocket install in my situation. If a pocket install is ultimately the best they can do, do I gamble on it? If no adjustment is made, is it worth 865/opening?

[rl-27]

Final update.....they have agreed to completely remove the existing new construction window and set the replacement, without a nailing flange, inside the RO, foam and seal to spec. They will add wider flashing around the siding to ease my mind. Still no sill flashing, but they assured me it would be fine. Pricing was reduced to 751/opening so long as I do not use their financing. I am happy with the outcome at this point. Now I have to determine if it makes sense to use my cash to pay in full or take the current, higher price and do 4 years at 0%. That is to be decided later. They also offered just the windows, but my wife said no.

Thanks again for all of your assistance and comments.

[Windows on Washington]

rl-27,

Good luck with the install and keep us posted how it turns out.

Eric