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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:00 am
Posts: 32
Location: Central US
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THD, I've been through this process of looking at the differences between 2-air, 2-argon, 3-argon and 3-krypton glass units just recently. Here are the NFRC certified u values for a upper-mid grade DH window I looked at recently with an intercept spacer:

[1p no air: 1 (they don't actually sell/rate this, just an accepted estimate)]
2p-air: .47
2p-argon: .30 low E
3p-argon: .22 low E
3p-krypton: .19 low E

Using a super spacer instead of the intercept reduces the u-value by about .01. Now, I can use this data as a rough starting point, but I know I also need to consider SHGC, air infiltration, etc. in some proportion for a full efficiency picture, and houses differ on the size and position of windows, heating/cooling costs, etc.

If your heating and cooling costs are close to 0, any reasonable window will do. If you pay $500/month on winter heating, the triple pane may start making sense, since I've seen some windows where triple pane only adds about $65 to the glass price.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:37 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
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THD

You conveniently danced around the facts again. Your "factual data" is not factual, it's part of a sales script. Your percentages given are not realistic nor are they based on scientific NFRC data or tested U-factors. Your approach to "simplify": "So now: Let us take a closer at those spec's - This time in laymans terms such that just about anyone can understand without further research or requiring a whole structure test to figure this one out": , explains the HD approach better than I could have.

Many consumers that frequent these sites are probably better educated than you are and come here for knowledge that they can varify. Home Depot preys on the average consumer that isn't aware of better sources of factual information. I can guaranty that after a one hour presentation similar to those I teach are delivered in a home, that homeowner knows more about windows than 95% of the HD employees or sales-reps in the country. The HD Installed Services program is nothing more than an income extention for HD... whereas the pros and contractors that frequent these sites share information with each other and homeowners and improve everyday because they live it.

By the way, Home Depot doesn't even sell Simonton's "top of the line", but others do. The Impressions 9800 is Simonton's best. So let's get it straight. HD's "BEST" window is that manufacturer's mid-grade product to be primarily installed by price-capped, subcontractors and the interested consumers were educated by store employees with no actual experience in the window business. Sounds like a job for....

"MASS-MARKETING-MAN"!!! <DA-DA-DA-DA> <the taped croud cheers in the backround>, ABLE TO PROCESS 0% FINANCING FASTER THAN A SPEEDING BULLET (actually compounded at 18%), ABLE LEAP OVER HIGH-PRESSURE PRICE OBJECTIONS IN A SINGLE BOUND (see Guy, I gave him a copy of a sales training script often used), AND ABLE TO STOP CONSUMERS FROM RESEARCHING FURTHER AS THEY ARE GIVEN A FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY <see above> ... <DA DA DA DA > ... the story begins.


As for your statement of: "So the real question (and my point to begin with here and originally) once again becomes: "Is it really worth $300-500.00 (minimum cost in addition) on an UP FRONT investment to save 3 +/-% on the heat pass through over time?"

Your percentages are not close to accurate by NFRC Certified standards, and many of us selling far better products than HD (some with triple-pane), sell them for $500-$700 (DH) with better trained installers which is LESS than the HD asking prices in most of the country for a lessor product. Add to this that most of these other products are much more attractive and better engineered, and you further increase their value beyond energy efficiency benefits. Punch that into your orange HD calculator and let's see what you come up with.

This is getting ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:43 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Fen your killing me! I almost rolled out of my chair!!!! lol

I just got out of a meeting with a bunch of marketing guru's who've been tracking window sales across the Nation. Just so happens all these guru's said Home Depots window program is failing at a rapid rate. The reason being they can't get any quality installers in most areas. They've cut their pricing to the installers so drastically no one will work for them. They've also screwed so many of the others over so bad, that the word out is stay away from them. They did report some areas were doing OK, but in general they were failing big time!!

As for HD's superior Simonton Window. That's pure BS. The window HD uses as I've stated before because I've been to the plant in Paris IL. The window is the 7500 frame with the 5500 sashes. They then throw in the 7/8" glass and Yippy Skippy you have a top of the line Simonton.

My question is why do we argue with ignorance? We need a site where this won't happen so often!! But I don't own it or control it. So they are considered acceptable. America at it's finest!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:58 pm
Posts: 1330
Location: Northern & Central Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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Guy wrote:
My question is why do we argue with ignorance?


A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.
-- Bertrand Russell

Dopeler effect: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
--Unknown

and lastly.....

Some folks are wise and some are otherwise. 8)
--Tobias Smollett


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